The simulators have no accurate model to duplicate the behavior of the airplane post stall. Sure, they will exhibit a some sort of behavior (and I have personally flown it in several A-330 simulators), but if it reflects the actual airplane is unknown.
There are however, efforts to design at least a generic stall response for inclusion in flight simulators. Recent US FAR changes (that go into effect in 5 years) will require training in recovery that depends on this and other simulator enhancements just now being hashed out. AF447 was a wake-up call in many ways. Many parts of the industry have woken up, but the fix is not complete. For now, practice by turning off the flight directors and autothrust and flying some good old basic attitude instrument flying. The flight directors are doing 85% of the brain work if you're hand flying with them on. Don't be a flight director addict! |
The flash of light contributes to the theory that an explosion is what brought down AF447, which was carrying 228 people from Rio de Janeiro to Paris.” Check out this animation that shows the other aircraft in the area deviating around the weather that helped bring AF447 down. (note the animation does not load with Chrome - works good in IE Flight Paths of Flight AF 447 and of the flights that crossed the zone around the same time |
Mont Ste. Odile
Originally Posted by DozyWannabe
OK, we're off-topic here, so I don't want to get too much into the subject, but from what I understand (based on what I've read and the portions of the report I've translated), the controller offered radar vectors to the ANDLO beacon (from which the VOR-DME approach could be made), but turned them slightly too early, and then used non-standard language when asked to confirm their position. This is in everything I've ever read on the subject.
Lessons Learned Air Inter Flight 148 Flight Path Animation http://lessonslearned.faa.gov/AirInt...Report_Eng.pdf |
The investigation concluded that, based on conversation on the cockpit voice recorder, the descent was intended to be performed at a flight path angle of 3.3 degrees. However, the investigators noted that the actual commanded descent was 3,300 feet per minute, and may have been the result of having inadvertently selected the vertical speed mode on the autopilot control panel. In this case, minus 33 would have appeared on the autopilot display, implying a 3,300 foot per minute descent, while in the flight path angle mode, minus 3.3 would have appeared in the same window. Flying at 220 Kts a 15% slope requests 3300 Ft/minute, as we pilots all know (220 x 15 = 3300) The crew was not aware that , descending step by step the VOR-DME approach and not the derogatory CDA, altitude 3660 FT was mandatory at 7 NM to STR VOR as "FAF" was not indicated. The crew respected "don't descend 4300 FT before 9 NM to STR due to possible false GPWS warning", and the next mandatory step seemed to be 1340 FT passing STR , without the three magic letters "FAF". Descending the 15% slope from 4300 FT to 1340 FT they met the ground. Sorry for off topics. |
Bon soir roulishollandais,
I am not following this current AF447 discussion - just occasionally dipping in - and I certainly do not want to get involved in a latterday argument about Mont St. Odile and the ergonomics of the FPA/VS switching and displays on the original A320 FCU and FMAs. Suffice it to say that they were much improved by modifications resulting from the investigation into that accident, as I remember only too well. But I think you might have another look at your sentence: Flying at 220 Kts a 15% slope requests 3300 Ft/minute, as we pilots all know (220 x 15 = 3300). I do not think so. You may remember that the rule of thumb for a 3-degree slope is that the required VS (in ft/min) is five times the groundspeed in knots. (I think most of us mentally divide the speed by ten, and then halve the answer to obtain the VS in hundreds of feet-per-minute.) At 220 kt that gives 1100 ft/min (add a tenth of that for a 3.3-deg slope.) Using the one-in-sixty "rule" (approximation), a 15-deg slope would demand about about five times as much, i.e., 5500 ft/min.** ** Non instrument-rated readers please note, the above are approximations only. |
Dear Chris,
220 kts. 3° = 5% (standard ILS) 220 * 5 = 1100 Ft/men 220 kts. 15% 220 * 15 = 3300 Ft/min The protection /limit slope is 15%, not 15° (PROMIN) The crew displayed that VOR-DME 15% limit as Vs 3300 FT/Min, not the CDA 3.3° they did not want to use. Are we together now? Of course they improved the ergonomics and displays, that does not prove it was a factor or cause in the CFIT.A question had emerged, why not do better ? That is the logic of annex 13 recommendations. |
Apologies, roulis,
Yes, I misread your 15% slope as 15 degrees. (Maybe I need new reading spectacles!) Must admit I am not accustomed to seeing descent profiles or glide-slopes expressed as percentages... Climb gradients always have been, of course. As already stated, I am not commenting here on the ergonomics of the A320 FCU, but do not disagree with your last paragraph. Having flown similar approaches on the type before and after the modifications, I'm broadly familiar with the accident scenario and the main hypothesis. |
Originally Posted by roulishollandais
(Post 8623883)
That is the anti Airbus brigade theory!
Of course there were other issues as well, but from a technical perspective this non-intuitive aspect of the FCU interface was probably the most glaring issue that needed to be fixed. The crew respected "don't descend 4300 FT before 9 NM to STR due to possible false GPWS warning" Victims were less happy and let me add that they took a wrong way : 1. Creating an association of victims after a crash cannot be used in French Law to get damage (we don't have Class Action) France Finally Embraces Class Actions | Publications | McDermott Will & Emery [EDIT : It appears the court did nevertheless find AF and Airbus liable for damages in 2006 : http://www.aviationpros.com/news/103...-in-1992-crash ] 2. Trying to manipulate the Court "to get more money" (from Airbus) was a very very bad idea. @Winnerhofer - re: contaminated blood, it didn't just happen in France, but also the UK and other places. In fact a good friend of mine (he's a fair bit older than me) sadly now carries Hep C as a result of a transfusion of contaminated blood in the early '80s. Anyways - I think that's about as far off-topic as I dare to go! Back to the gallery... |
Actually, Winnerhofer, it seems that Air France's imposition of English on its pilots is only for communications with ATC at Roissy (CDG). I don't think there are any existing or proposed French auto-callouts in AF cockpits? On the other hand, the AF checklists, including their QRH, seem still to be in French, and (as the AF447 CVR demonstrated) AF cockpit business is conducted in the native tongue. Far be it from me to offer an opinion on that.
Those of us who have observed some of the actions of SNPL over the decades can understand that pilots forming the residue within AF of the ancien Air Inter, the former French domestic airline, might find it distasteful to adapt to ATC comms in English. It's almost unknown at any French airfield to hear a Francophone pilot speaking English for ATC comms, so this French anomaly is not specific to CDG. As the Liberation article indicates, Air France has been the only non-Anglophone flag-carrier outside the former Soviet bloc refusing to speak English for ATC comms at its home airfields. |
Which is the Air France UAS procedure today?
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Hello Winnerhofer,
That would all benefit from a definitive translation into English. Quote from Stéphane Gicquel, secrétaire général de la Fédération nationale des victimes d'attentats et d'accidents collectifs: " « Les acteurs de l'aérien ont une culture de l'entre-soi. Les familles de victimes ont une vraie difficulté à croire à leur indépendance. » " By "l'aérien", is he referring to ICAO, the regulators, the manufacturers, the airline industry, or individual airliner crews? Whichever it is. no doubt it could provoke some lively debate. |
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Originally Posted by Marnet-Cornus
Airbus et l’EASA ont demandé aux pilotes d’assumer la responsabilité du défaut d’un équipement de l’A 330 en sous-estimant le risque.
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Originally Posted by Chris Scott
By "l'aérien", is he referring to ICAO, the regulators, the manufacturers, the airline industry, or individual airliner crews? Whichever it is. no doubt it could provoke some lively debate.
* Charles de Gaulle |
RH
Underestimating the risk to deepstall that plane or the risk to be unable to recover from the stall ? en sous-estimant le risque. But I think the risk that mean Cornu is: Décembre 2002 : La FAA rend obligatoire le remplacement de la sonde Rosemount par les sondes Goodrich et Thalès AA en précisant le risque de sortie du domaine de vol et qu’il s’agit de la réponse à une « unsafe condition » December 2002: The FAA mandates replacement of the Rosemount probe probes Goodrich and Thales AA specifying the risk to go out of the flight domain and that is the answer to an "unsafe condition" |
Originally Posted by roulishollandais
(Post 8640454)
Underestimating the risk to deepstall that plane or the risk to be unable to recover from the stall ?
Originally Posted by HM-C
Airbus and EASA have asked drivers to take responsibility for default equipment of the A 330 underestimating risk.
For another, there's an interesting sideline here: Pitot probes : Air France - Corporate Following the fluctuations and/or inconsistency in aerodynamic speed indications on the long-haul A330 and A340 reported by some airlines, the French Civil Aviation Authorities published an Airworthiness Directive (AD) per type of aircraft to impose the replacement of the ROSEMOUNT P/N 0851GR Pitot probes, either with the GOODRICH P/N 0851HL probes, or by the SEXTANT (THALES) P/N C16195-AA probes. This operation had to be completed by 31 December 2003. The authorities did in fact attribute these incidents to the presence of ice crystals and/or quantities of water which exceeded the specifications of the P/N 0851GR Pitot probes, manufactured by ROSEMOUNT, which was acquired in 1993 by GOODRICH. As for the overriding premise of M. Marnet-Cornus's PDF, it's the standard SNPL modus operandi of indignant tone, selective presentation of information and questionable attempts at misdirection. (again please excuse Google Translate) ..the Autopilot and auto-thrust are disconnected, flight controls move ALTERNATE into law. While control of the aircraft is reduced, the crew must keep them in a very small area of flight and face a incredible number of alarms in a very short time. This is an excessive workload. The ALTERNATE, which was imposed their law and using which they had never been trained at high altitude, is a mode degraded flight controls. The A 330 was no longer consistent with all regulations of the basis of his certification, he was just "Controllable" very unstable in roll. The loss of information speed entailed the risk of asking its flight. The third paragraph makes reference to a claim that Alternate Law makes the aircraft unstable in roll. Again, this is a fabrication. Alternate 2 makes roll control direct - so the aircraft will be *more sensitive* in roll, but that's a long way from unstable. In the space of 49 seconds, to 02h10.54, the A 330 wins and can not be recovered For over four years, the media relentlessly dogs custody of the politico-industrial system cowardly tried to make dead drivers solely responsible for this tragedy All these points of very questionable veracity occur in the introduction, three pages in. I have a very difficult time believing that the rest of the document is much better in that regard. |
Dozy, Re:Pitot tubes
Could you explain to all of us why Goodrich pitot tubes, that worked very well on Boeing jets, were not considered as replacements in 2007? Now quite honestly, Airbus and Air France are experienced entities, not new-bees to this business of aviation and how speeds are measured and which devises are best. I think there is much more to this story from a technical point of view that isn't being revealed. The Air France time line is nothing more than a talking point or "positioning", that is to say, "Who me? I didn't do anything wrong." I am sure Airbus has a similar talking point. Lawyers like talking points. |
Originally Posted by Turbine D
(Post 8640975)
Could you explain to all of us why Goodrich pitot tubes, that worked very well on Boeing jets, were not considered as replacements in 2007?
This is illustrated in M.Marnet-Cornus's document: In 2008 175 Airbus A 330 of 32 companies Airlines are equipped with the [faulty] sensor. 555 [A330s built] as of 31 July 2008 [EDIT : HM-C's focus on the pitot tubes is itself a misdirection of sorts. The aircraft did not crash simply as a result of the UAS condition, in fact there's a good chance that had there been no manual input, the aircraft would have bumped its way through the turbulence with the speed indications returning in a minute or less. The aircraft crashed because the PF's instinctive response of pulling back on the stick without any discussion or notification was inappropriate, and became more and more inappropriate as the sequence unfolded.] |
Read the original threads. The manufacturer/certification status of the AoA vanes state that the readings given from the vanes are not sufficiently reliable below 60kts IAS. Certainly not a situation where you want inappropriate hard protections making things more difficult.
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I was taught early in my career as a fighter pilot |
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