CAT II/III Autoland - who does what?
 

For those of you that do CAT II/III Autopilot (not using HUD) to either landing or G/A – who does what?

- Does either the F/O or Capt always fly the approach – landing – both?
- Does the non-flying pilot transition to make the landing while the pilot who flew the approach make a G/A unless the field is in sight?
- Who does the call outs during the approach – the flying pilot or the non-flying pilot? Is this different than your CAT I callout procedures?

Again – this is only for a full autopilot procedure – regardless of the references to who is the flying/non-flying pilot.

Finally – what are your opinions of the procedures you fly – do they work well – need an overhaul – some tweaking?

Thanks for your ideas and opinions,

Petigram

In BA on the Airbus the P2 flies the approach and the Captain takes control at 1000R. P2 then monitors aircraft performance and approach guidance, Captain is 'heads out' looking for necessary visual clues ready to perform landing. Seems to work very well, never had a problem yet (apart from some interesting Airbus autolands).

AWOPs, FO flies approach down to DA, when FO calls "decide". Capt either calls "go around", or "land", which he then allows it do,and takes control.In the GA case the FO retains control and flies it.
All other approaches P2 flies the approach and P1 lands it, when he is happy with the visual references available. This is usually done at 1000' radio call to which P1 usually says "visual, I have control". However if P1 has really good eyesight, and its a nice day, he can call visual at any point in the descent!
Confusing innit?!:rolleyes:

Now then, if we ignore the British way of doing things....
Captain (and autopilot) fly the aeroplane, co-pilot looks outside for visual cues....autopilot lands aeroplane.
Seems to work quite nicely, thank you very much.
The business of...handing over at DH is a lot of nonsense, IMHO.:rolleyes:

!!! On both B737 and A320, autoland is a captain's (LHS) landing. At 100' above decision, captain looks out, f/o continues to monitor. Captain makes decision and calls it. Hopefully remembers to take out autopilot before taxying.

For Cat IIIB, there are no calls after "Land Green" at 400' RA. You go around for the big red flashing light. Otherwise you land! Coool!

On the airbus, you have to pull back the thrust levers to land. With autothrottle on the B737, you don't. So in terms of autolands, the B737 is more automatic than the airbus. But then it doesn't have IIIB.

411A

I have just realised why I dislike your posts so much. It is not so much the fact that you have a different opinion it the arrogant, unpleasant way in which you express that opinion.

You say that the captain + autopilot flys the aeroplane and the co-pilot looks out. So the man with his hands on the controls (coupled to the autopilot) decides to land because the co-pilot says that he (the captain) has enough visual clues? I am sure that I prefer to make my own decision and have my co-pilot concentrate SOLELY on monitoring the autopilot.

More than one way to skin a cat and contrary to your apparent assumption some of us have had experience of those different ways too. I don't assume that because other airlines have different ideas that they are necessarily wrong, just different.

Incidentally wasn't it the British who pioneered autoland and by default safe operating procedures at the same time?

Well, I have to say I can't see much advantage to handing over at DH either ......

RS pilot flies the approach to DH/Alert Height. LS pilot takes control/orders the GA at minima/AH. RS continues to monitor the autoland, calling FMA changes or failures.

Must say, 411A, it seems to work for us, and not a British operation either....


Out of interest, how in depth do you all brief a Cat III?

BBD

Hand Solo,

You can't leave us hanging with a teaser like that. Tell us more about the interesting airbus autolands.

The Boeing Flt Trng Manual (B-737-700) has very little in the way of gudance concerning flying a CAT II/III Approach. Using that input alone - it would appear that they suggest that these Approaches be flown by either pilot and that the pilot flying remains the pilot flying throughout landing or go-around (understanding that the A/C is likely on autopilot).

After reading the replies in this thread, it appears that almost all carriers divide the tasks so that either the Captain or F/O always do the Approach and if necessary go-around (most the F/O it appears) and the other pilot/seat, always does the landing.

Is there any Operation out there that uses the "either pilot and that pilot carries through with either landing or go-around?"

Again - this pertains strictly to CAT II/III flown entirely on the autopilot.

I'd like to add one more request - as I originally said - how do you feel about the procedures your doing - I'd like to know the reasons that you think they are good/bad - i.e. - that the Captain taking over to land after going heads up for a while gives him more time to transition to visual cues when the transition time would be reduced on CAT II/III Approaches - just an example - not trying to put words in anyone’s mouths.

I appreciate all of your input - this has been an informative and sometimes "lively" thread.

Thanks again - Pettigram

Plus ca change
The friendly ( I hope ) banter between Slickster and 411A reminds me of a typical dinner party in the '60s & '70s. A group of pilots and wives would be making polite conversation, when one of the guys would bring up this subject. The boys had all been to Hamble or Oxford, and at the end of their training been allocated to either BEA ( back every afternoon ) or BOAC. The Trident boys operated to Cat III using a monitored approach system as described by Slickster, whilst BOAC, who weren't too interested in foggy landings, operated to higher limits using the 'one man band' system. I well remember one wife finally cracking, and putting an end to this debate by saying:
" It's always happens - why do we always have to have the same argument - who cares about monotonous apocrypha or whatever it is you're talking about"
I've had experience of both systems ( about 15 years of each ) and my vote goes to Slickster - it just seem the better way of using the crew resources sensibly.

When PETIGRAM asked the question to start this off he/she excluded the situation where you use a HUD. As someone would doesn't have a HUD, can I ask whether your procedures vary when you either have a HUD fitted( in which case who would make the decision call as per Slicksters case) or the HUD goes U/S either before or during the approach?

Thanks

Well I too have often wondered about this (for me!) strange way the British seem to go about it. (Not meaning to insult anyone!). It just seems complicated.
In my company you fly the approach in the exact same manner procedurewise and call-out wise whether it is CAT I, II or III. The only difference is that only the commander flies CAT II & III. PF looks out at Minima and PNF looks in........

I'm new to autolands etc and am I right in thinking judging by what’s been written that at BA and similar airlines P2 RHS never lands the plane whether CATl/ll/lll approach ?

Cheers

LL

Well, considering that THEY will tell you that THEIR training is the best ever.....I guess they don't trust the First Officer to do.....anything.
Sad.

Maybe the real reason is the UK captain has "Full legal liability to the extent of his worldwide wealth" if it all goes wrong.

Therefore the captain must call the Land and V1 decisions to fully lock in his and the insurance companies liability beyond any legal doubt.

No one cares who or what actually lands the aircraft as long as the fall guy who is going to pay made the recorded calls and the insurance companies are locked in and the claims unavoidable.

Liquid Lunch

To prevent yet more erroneous information becoming fact, First Officers cannot land in CAT 2/3 conditions. They can land in CAT 1 or greater but are limited to 2/3rds of the aircraft wind limitations.

411A

Once again a typical comment that shows nothing except your own ignorance.

scanscanscan

You said 'Therefore the captain must call the Land and V1 decisions to fully lock in his and the insurance companies liability beyond any legal doubt'

In BA First Officers can call stop in some clearly defined situations and also call land or go-around when intending to land the aircraft in anything above CAT 2 or 3 conditions.

I don't understand your statement.

Edited for spilling.

MM

Thanks for the reply, I'm new to CATl/ll/lll SOPs.

Cheers

411

although you got me cross on another thread, I am absolutely with you here.

young paul

you know not of which you speak.

:rolleyes:

Cat II/III aproaches as flown on the Airbus FBW at I used to do them at both Sabena and now Air Lib:

-) First officer is Pilot Flying from top of descent till DH on RA.

-) F/O looks inside all the time.

-) Captain as well but as from DH + 200 starts looking outside.

-) then the call out 'minimums' is made by the plane.

-) Captain calls out 'go-around' and the F/O flies the go-around through the autopilot (i.e: clicks the toga button) or captain calls out 'landing' and takes over controls (i.e puts his hand on the throttle and closes them) to land the plane.