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-   -   What causes the slight "pause" at around 10 degrees during rotation in the 767 and 73 (https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/508665-what-causes-slight-pause-around-10-degrees-during-rotation-767-73-a.html)

Vidab 26th Feb 2013 00:47

Not the case in the 747-400/-8. There is a distinct change in the force required around the 9-10 degree range. The tail moving into ground effect is the cause.

Proper technique is to rotate at 2.5deg/sec with no pause to target 12.5 deg. initial (which is tail strike territory). However, executed properly this ensure about 18 inches of tail clearance at max weights prior to liftoff. A two stage rotation is not required to protect the tail. Mostly, on the 747 at least, if you see it it's just poor technique.

Of course, none of this precludes the PF from adjusting rotation rates and pitch attitudes for the given conditions (W/S, gusty conditions, eng failure, etc).

sudden Winds 26th Feb 2013 01:23

too lazy to read the whole thread to check if this has been already explained.

That apparent "pause" is basically a change in the pitching characteristic as you transition from rotating the airplane about its main gear, to pitching it up about its longitudinal axis, that is forward. That´s all. If you´ve rotated the plane a few times already, you know that by the time you are passing by those 10 degrees, you apply about 2 inches more of aft elevator displacement, so that the 3 degrees per second are not interrupted.

blind pew 26th Feb 2013 08:12

Sudden I think that your theory is incorrect as the change of the pivot point moves further away from the force; ie stab. Therefore there is a greater moment on transition from gear to CofG.
The ground effect explanation gets my money.
If you want an even better mystery then why do some gliders hunt in pitch during a winch launch...stick on the aft stop?

Conductor 26th Feb 2013 08:52

The lag is certainly noticeable on the 767 and I was under the impression it was due to the tail plane flying into ground effect.

de facto 26th Feb 2013 09:50

On the 737, it is the result of the mach trim system action after take off when the aircraft is in the FCNSE region.(within 10 secs after lift off).
The elevators will move to a neutral shift position and will allow the aircraft to have a larger nose up attitude for a specific reason.
This neutral shift is felt by you as a 'pause'...
You can pitch up through this 'pause' for the loss of a few knots...

The third answer is that the "pause" is designed into these aircraft to minimise tail strike if the rotation is too fast?
No,proper training and reading/applying FCTM do.

The elevator neutral shift is to allow a higher attitude in case of engine failure.

Lord Spandex Masher 26th Feb 2013 15:55

Mach trim is only active above .615M. Are you talking about the speed trim system?

de facto 27th Feb 2013 01:34

Excuse me my Lord:E but the Mach trim works in high speed flight regime (as you said above Mach 0.615 but also within 10 secs after lift off as described above.
The speed trim by the way moves the stabilizer not the elevator , directly at least.

Lord Spandex Masher 27th Feb 2013 09:15

That's why I ask as my tech manual doesn't mention the 10 seconds airborne in the Mach trim section only in the speed trim bit.

Classic not NG by the way, are they different?

de facto 27th Feb 2013 16:16

I fly the NG and only have a few hours on the CL so not sure,but i dont see why not,both have mach trim and speed trim system.
The speed trim after take off is for speed stability when in a low speed-high thrust scenario,the FCC will command the stabilizer CPU to mive it downwards to induce an increase in speed.
The mach trim in our case moves the elevator to a neutral position so the elevator can be moved more upwards in case anenginefailsduring take off,a different function of the mach trim other than speed stability at mach .615 and above.

JammedStab 28th Feb 2013 01:20


Originally Posted by Vidab (Post 7714852)
Not the case in the 747-400/-8. There is a distinct change in the force required around the 9-10 degree range. The tail moving into ground effect is the cause.

Proper technique is to rotate at 2.5deg/sec with no pause to target 12.5 deg. initial (which is tail strike territory). However, executed properly this ensure about 18 inches of tail clearance at max weights prior to liftoff. A two stage rotation is not required to protect the tail. Mostly, on the 747 at least, if you see it it's just poor technique.

40 (plus or minus one) inches tail clearance depending on the flap setting is the appropriate number for the -400, slightly different for the -8(at least according to the FTCM). As for the change in force, it seemed more like at 12.5 degrees to me but I will check it out again in a couple of days. As well, 15° is the initial target attitude according to the FCTM.

I had been wondering what the reason was for the force change. Quite a convenient aerodynamic feature to have if it is just the ground effect as the cause.


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