Difficulty on first few flights (a320 line training)
 

Just making this thread because I seem to be a little worried.
Things go rather much faster than I am used to generally.
My R/T could use SOME work, but it's nothing practice won't fix I guess.
With the headphones off, and on loudspeaker, I find it more difficult to listen to long clearances.

A lot of workload I am not used to.
Find myself lost in the airway manual sometimes, and just not always ahead of the aircraft.
I have had a lot of gaps between flights, and i am also a newbie with only 400 hours TT on single engine.

Is this normal? I could use some advice.
Thanks in advance.

Seems pretty normal. You've go 400 hours. I suspect most of that is in the instructional environment?

Flying the line in an air carrier twin jet with 400 hours of single engine time? You should be playing catch up.

We dont offer P2F, all of our cadets are airline sponsored, they are given jet orientation, then more simulator time that normal, along with state of the art training aids..... its a slow process in order to allow them to study and be prepared... Then they begin line training... even with all of the preparation, some fail because it is bloody tough.....

So hang in there and remember that its up to your instructor to assess you based on what he expects from someone with 400 hours, not for you to assess yourself based on what you think you should be able to do :)

Mutt

1) Yes
2) Ask your line training Captains. How are your debriefs?

We armchair quarterbacks certainly cannot monitor/adjust your line training

WhySoTough:- Welcome to the real world, being an Airline Pilot ain't all coffee and great views is it!!

400 hrs and you wonder why you have trouble flying a complicated 460 kt Jet at 39,000'

The mind boggles!!

I was lucky to get my hands on a Piper Seminole at the 400 hour mark.

What are the Airlines thinking????:D

Thanks for the responses guys.
It's mostly flight training, then some hours as an instructor before the flight school shut down..

Just to be clear, this isn't p2F, not paying for the hours.
The instructors have been happy so far, with the minor things here and there, most have given me good remarks, but I personally see that my performance isn't great, and that it's generally quiet tough.

Thanks again.

It's to be expected and flight trainers are aware of the big jump for low houred cadets. After all it has been the normal way in europe for the last 60 years to jump right out of flightschool into an airliner, so there is a lot of training experience about it.

Like the other said, probably normal progress.

In comment to some of the posts above, I find that the student has an equal responsibility to improve. The trainer sets the framework for the learning process, but the best instructor you will find is actually yourself.

Even if you instructors are satisfied with your progress, I find it an advantage that you question yourself and may actually be more ambitious. Just be careful not to put yourself under too much pressure.

I would recommend is to make a personal scoresheet in excel or something like that. Each leg on one axis and on the other a field for preflight/taxi, takeoff, climb... to taxi in, and shutdown. For each field put in the most important point to improve/mistake for each leg. You can put in other fields where you have difficulties like RT. Don't write long stories, but in shorthand that you easily can compare each flight.

That way you can track if there are things that you continuously forget or mess up and improve them yourself.

Nitpicker: give him some space.

I have flown with many, many low-hour pilots; they need time to develop.

Whyso: relax. If you have a job and are flying, you are on top of the world.

Good luck.

my 2 cents on line training
 

pre flight prep is key. know EVERYTHING about your next sector. taxi routing, ground freqs, sid's, NADP's, engine out routings, airways, airways notes, airspace boundry, STARS, the approach charts, taxi routing after landing, usual parking bays at destination. most of this info, you can get from seniors, and other guys who have been online for awhile. make friends, force them to help you.. buy beer for them, that usually works huhu
i used to spend the whole night before flight looking at the details of the flight. calling up my buddies who are online and bugging them about anything i'm unsure of. i can tell you, the online guys can name you waypoints all around the world which are of interest, the tricks and traps in certain FIRs. always keep an eye on the traps.. it'll kill you at the worst, get you a proper written warning at the best.

next, concentrate on time management. especially on the ground. preping the aircraft, doing your briefing, take off analysis charts. plan your work flow, and dont get distracted (i know of some instructors who will delay you on purpose to get you to panic. he wants to see you under pressure). practice your take off briefing until you can do it in one breath (without thinking too much is what i mean)
then time management in the air before decent. practice arrival briefings at home, know the flow. practice a general airport and fm briefing at home hundreds of times.

then the landings (if you have any trouble with that) this can be done by reading the fctm, bunk flying/flight sim(buy a computer flight controller to get used to the side stick, there are good A320 sim software [wilco airbus series] out there, its not 100% the same as airbus, its simulates normal law not too bad, flare law is kinda whack, but it helps, helps alot. just dont use the flight sim figures in real life, this is more of an exercise for you to get used to the sidestick and trying to make small corrections during the final approach phase/ also it will help you with your FMGEC work. i remember when i was on the turboprops, my housemate used to fly PMDG's 738 flight sim and i used to join in, by the time i got on to the 73, fm work was pie) and paying close attention to the instructor during p2 duties. try and get your body to be hyper sensitive to changes in attitude and sink rates, acceleration and deceleration rates. anticipate momentum, remember the inertia, small corrections early. if you are tuned enough, you'll come to a point where the FD's will follow you instead of you following it. breathe and concentrate.

descent planning. learn your 3 times table, and as you become more aware, pay attention to traffic and try to anticipate when ATC will give direct tracks, and when they will ask you to slow down during approach. this can be done with good usage of ears(listening out to RT and being aware how many a/c are on approach, where they are, and what speeds they are doing) and good usage of TCAS display. knowing who is in front of you in sequence, will give you good anticipation of whats gonna happen next. also, know exactly how long it takes the aircraft to decel in level flight, decending flight, tail/head wind effects.



all of these items may not apply to you, but of all my years as a safety co pilot, from newbies on the turbo props to guys who come up to widebody from narrow body jets seem to always lose the plot around these few areas.

finally is book knowledge.. you gotta help yourself there.

Don't be discouraged, we all had to start somewhere, you are doing better than you think you are.



Your insight that you could improve is actually the sign of a true professional, he or she always try's to improve on every flight. I always go over, in my mind what I could have done better and try to apply it on my next flight.


On the other hand, as already pointed out, don't obsess or worry needlessly about mistakes, or a less than perfect performance, no one else is.


It is a constant learning situation and process of self improvement, from the most inexperienced new Pilot to the experienced veteran, at least it should be.



Incidentally, even after having flown jet transports for many years when converting onto a new type I find it takes me about a year to be completely comfortable with it, there are lots of nuances and things to learn, especially when changing to a different manufacturer.



Work at it, but most of all enjoy :ok:

WST

relax, it's absolutely normal.

As a matter of fact, it is a good thing that you are "worried", if that worry does not make you anxious or something.
Because it means you are monitoring yourself and in a "learning" mode. That's very good. Keep it like that in the next years... and decades. Never stop learning and monitoring your weaknesses and your experience will make you a much better pilot than one who just doesn't care.

be happy!

Hang in there, I was way behind when I first transitioned to the electric jet too, and I had 10,000 hours.

Enjoy the bus!:ok:

One of the best comments I've read here.

Flight Directors are suggestions, not commands.

Just wanted to thank everybody that posted.
Much appreciated. :)

Why aren't they called Flight Suggesters then? :E

:ok:

You would be surprise how many 10000+ hours pilot follows it like if it's a command from god!

But like most others have said, preparation is the key. Just have a piece of paper of frequencies and navaids that you'll encounter on route, study the charts that you'll most likely to use...etc. Make sure your procedures are down pat, go through the geographic and different phrases of flight in your mind at home.

Know your recalls. I like to do mine in the car on the way to work. Afterall, when you do do it in a real emergency you are not going to be sitting in your comfy coach, feet up, just focused on doing the recall.

I know what you mean.

Sometimes, when the preceding traffic is altering the localizer beam, the FD will command a slight bank in the wrong sense. In VMC and manual flight there is no point in following it. I just keep aligned with the centerline and wait for the FD bar to come back to me. Sometimes I hear "follow the bars" or something. I hate that.

I am also an advocate of making the bars come, in this sense: the bars tell me what they want, in order to achieve the target. then I bank and or pitch as necessary to achieve the target. As I bank ad or pitch, the bars change. they give targets, they don't have to be followed while they move. If you achieve the pitch and bank angle required, they will be centered. For instance, if the order is bank 25º right, the bar is fully to the right. I don't rush to follow it (it goes there very quickly). Instead I gently roll to 25º and the bar will come to me as much as I do come to it, but gently. Same for pitch. Sometimes the target is too much and I know that if I go for it slowly the bar will reverse and meet with me halfway. If I followed the command quicky I would have to make two inputs in both senses.

It's important to know that it is not necessary to follow the bars as they move, but to gently reach the target they are marking.

It takes guys with a bunch of experience about 100 hrs in type to stop feeling uncomfortable and about 500 hrs, or one year, to feel really comfortable in type.

With 400 hrs TT you've got a tiger by the tail. Work hard and WATCH what your more experienced coworkers, be it CA or FO, do. Observe, study, be prepared, and figure out how to raise your game to their level. It will take time.

If you ever give up the tiger will turn around and bite you. :eek:

One other thing that will really help with the radios (especially on longer sectors) is to look at the flight plan and pick out the VORs and their full names.

That way, when you're cleared direct to Karlsruhe or Coulommiers you have a vague idea of what's just been said to you and know the ident (KRH or CLM for example) to look for in the flight plan.

But IMHO experience with the radios only comes with time. If your airline flies with headsets on in the cruise bite the bullet and get a noise-canceling one.

I would have been lucky to know were to sit in the thing with 400 hours .

I've 2000 hours on the A320 and still feel brand new!

I'd just like to chime in to compliment you on your attitude there; I'd much rather see honest self-criticism than cocky overconfidence at your stage. Stick with it, and don't be *too* hard on yourself!

R1

WST.

Don't stress, your experience is normal - especially one with only 400 hours flying a big shiny jet. Everything seems to happen at light speed compared to a Seneca !! In a big jet, you must make corrections early and not let the aircraft deviate from the flight path without correcting it, otherwise, it can very quickly get out of hand.

The way the human brain learns something new is that, initially, it uses it's entire conscious mind to think about and supply answers for the new experience. This is why you may feel that you have very limited capacity at the moment. However, after a while, your brain will learn to do a lot of the donkey work automatically, without you thinking about it.

I would warn against overloading yourself by trying to learn everything about the route. Just find out whether there is anything unusual about your departure and destination; if ATC tend to keep you high or fast on approach for example - and if so, how to deal with it. Make sure you know your company's SOP's, your cockpit set-up drills, (after engine start, after landing etc.), how to operate the aircraft, and how to calculate a descent point. Also, try to know the flight paperwork that you as F/O will have to fill out. A trainer will not expect you to know everything, but if you can come across as generally competant, and are not having to be 'spoon fed' about absolutely everything, you should be OK.

If you don't recognise the full name of a VOR, you can ask ATC what the 3 letter code is - no shame in that - I do it and I've got 7,000 hours !! Usually, though if you look at the PLOG/Flight plan, you will be able to spot the three letter code they mean, and if not 100% sure you can just confirm it with your trainer - "KRH is that?".

If you were doing a driving test, your examiner would not expect you to be able to navigate a route from memory, but they will want to see that you can operate the car safely - it's the same thing with aircraft.



Good luck !

U

Then You slept for the whole flight and everything run well and peacefully

:}:}

LOL

obviously you need to get the 8 hours sleep before flight

Develop your own list
 

Develop your own 'Knowledge List'. It's better done over a period of time, but decent template could be produced in one or two self-brainstorming sessions. A good starting point would be the Company LOE or equivalent (Supy/Observer?) form. If there's time then a briefing from a friendly pilot slightly ahead in the list would be good before every series of flights. It's useful to know which 6 charts you might invariably need to use out of the 65 terminal charts for airport XXXX. Going through the motions of making your own 'route guide' helps, even if you do not ever look at it again.

Learn to use your documents well, if you don't know it, fine, but if you cannot find it in 3 minutes flat, that's a no-no with me. And then there's electronic documentation . . . a whole new story, yet to find an ending.

Topics could broadly be along the lines of:

Airplane Type SOP, non-normal/abnormal/emergency 'memory items'
Limitations
Variations - RW change at the last min for T/O or Ldg - have your own memory jogger or 'chklist'.
Dep Dest and their Alts (+enroute too)
Peculiarities of route and Alternate Airports (which you may never really visit- terrain, unusually higher minima, One way RW, lack of ILS approaches, to name a few)
ATC procs
Special Ops and others: RVSM, MNPS, PBN, TCASII - from a line flying view
Emergency procs, memory items, ATC-emerg procs
A good geographic orientation - awareness of ETP
Ops Manual Part A - review of Company Procs - (guaranteed to promote slumber but this doc v v important) - such as AOM (aerodrome operating minima's), AWO (all weather ops as applicable to you) - DTLs (Duty TIme Limits) etc.

The above is just to point you in the right direction and by no means exhaustive. A good method is to keep a pocket notebook or notecard (or smartphone) handy and note down every relevant item that comes to mind.

And like many a wise person has said throughout this discussion - take yourself seriously but only just, rest up well, and do not overload yourself - all that Captain or Trainer is looking for is that you know what you're doing and you're self critical enough to realise where you have to work up.

Cheers!

WhySoTough,

The way my instructor / examiner used to get the point across to me : on a piece of paper, draw a small inverted triangle. You are at the pointy bottom end and projecting your awareness forward within the confines of the small triangle. You are now at a stage when you are not projecting yourself far enough ahead, so very quickly you fall behind the aircraft.

Now draw a larger triangle from your pointy end and widen the sides. Here you are projecting yourself ahead more and widening your awareness of what's coming ahead. You need to think about "what's next" all the time and know in advance exactly what will happen before it actually happens.

As some posters say, it doesn't happen overnight. It takes practice and, above all, confidence in what you are doing. Work hard at it and I promise you it will yield good results.

:ok:

Something that helped me with the radio was to get an app that would write the full name of the VORs so I put them in the app before my flight just to have seen the names before the flight.

I think the app was called "name that nav" or something.

Or you could try and take home some old en-route charts

WST:

This article is orientated towards simulator work on the B757/767 but some of it may be helpful to you as your career progresses.

Concentrate on the essentials initially ('must know' stuff) then as you gain experience add the 'should know' and 'nice to know'.

Good luck!

Indeed, FDs are just an aid. What I found about FDs is that in a crew where SOPs and CRM are proper - the need for Flight Directors is little.

Such need arises when one crew member is doing something that the other didn't expect, and the FDs is the aid to bring them back in sync. Most of the time, the "intervening" crew member would be the Captain, and the "lagging" crew member would be the cadet, so the Captain would tell him "follow the flight directors!". Should they've followed their PF/PM roles properly, the Captain would say "adjust speed" rather than adjusting the knob himself.

Unfortunately, many Captains are feeling free to "correct" their peer by intervention, which isn't a good practice (unless he does some hazardous ****, of course). Letting him do his job as good as he can would be more productive, reducing the need for flight directors. Flight directors is not a workaround for poorly trained crew but for poor CRM - in my humble opinion.

Could not agree more. I prefer V/S over open CLB/DES while manually flying with the AT on, because I will at least have some speed protection, but the training department seems to dislike teaching V/S.

Gobal speed protection :

If FDs are engaged in CLIMB or OPEN CLIMB mode or EXP CLB  and the flight crew does
not follow the FD bars to maintain the commanded climb (pitch too low and autothrust in maximum
climb thrust), the aircraft accelerates.
Both FDs disengage when VMAX+4 is reached (VMAX being VMO, VLE or VFE). If the A/THR is
active, it reverts to SPEED mode and reduces the thrust to recover the speed target.
A triple click aural warning sounds.

FDs are engaged in an OPEN mode in descent with the AP not engaged.
If the FDs are engaged in DES, or OP DES mode, or EXP DES  and, if the flight crew does not
follow the FD bars to maintain the commanded pitch, the aircraft decelerates (insufficient descent
rate and idle thrust).
If the airspeed reaches VLS-2, both FDs disengage. (If speedbrakes are extended, the FDs
disengage between VLS-2 and VLS-19, depending on the position of the speedbrakes).
The A/THR, if active, reverts to SPEED mode upon FDs disengagement, and increases thrust to
recover the speed target.
A triple-click aural warning sounds.

This seems to be great advice. You seem overwhelmed and all over the place. Narrow your focus to the essentials, let the other stuff fall into place. One day, the pieces will click into place, and the logical progression will make sense, and so will all of the bits and pieces of knowledge you have accumulated.

Ask a lot of questions, that is good. Appearing to have a lack of confidence, or too much confidence, not good.

I had an excellent instructor in the sim. After a few, what I thought were excellent approaches, the instructor suggested the procedure on full motion. Great I thought!. Unknown to me, he had the tech add a 30 kt crosswind and an iced runway....result....teeth rattled and a balked landing...
learned that you always are learning.

Yeah, I know. Should not have used "protection", I should have said that if you are hand flying visually and select V/S instead of open descend/climb the AT will maintain your selected/managed speed if you reduce pitch down, and similarly, it will maintain speed if you reduce pitch while you climb.