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777fly yes I think that we should try and remain upbeat for the moment, still a bit of a blow though.
I think they will eventually find it, as you said it hasn't sunk into the silt at all. |
Rear-View Analysts . . .
Now that AF447 has been located it is easy to ask: "Why didn't you just look there in the first place and save all that time, trouble and money?" Regardless of when or where or whether the wreckage was found, there were bound to be accusations of "too close, too far, too much, too soon, too complete . . . " If the problem had been easy it would have been solved a long time ago.
It is good the authorities have involved recovery resources from multiple agencies and nationalities. Regardless of the outcome of the investigation there will be conspiracy accusations. Anomaly or even completeness will be seen by some as "evidence" of a coverup. The more BEA involve independent participants, the less likely the accusations are to resonate with the public. If the problem had been easy it would have been solved a long time ago. |
Hi,
I hope .. the families will have now the answers to their questions ..... Google Vertaling Original: Réunion du 5 octobre 2010 au ministère des transports | BEA |
I am a bit confused by this discovery. I thought that the Alucia had photomapped the entire wreckage area (thousands of photos) and no sign of either recorder, and thus the supposition was they were still in the tail.
Did the Alucia miss this recorder, or is it now being seen because the Ile de Sein moved a piece of wreckage that was obscuring it? |
Quote from 777fly:
"It is encouraging that the FDR module, although missing the CSMU, is not buried in silt to any extent. I do not see any footprints or scrape marks around the the FDR housing, so not much for any conspiracy theorists to go on." I wonder at wahat stage the "module memoire" broke away from what they call the "chassis". At sea-level impact or when the chassis hit the sea bed? Seem to remember someone came up with a suggestion on this thread that a long streamer might be attached to these modules in the future... |
@ SaturnV : IIRC Alucia vehicle glided "far" (~10-15m) above the sea bed.
Look at the picture, imagine what you would see from this same part (recorder casing) on a pic taken vertically from 10m high ? I'm not sure if the previous pics (phase 4) were in colours ? If B/W pics, it's even harder to notice that part as "interesting". @ Chris Scott "Il s'est désolidarisé sans doute sous l'effet de l'impact" avec la surface de l'eau, a expliqué à l'AFP le directeur du BEA, Jean-Paul Troadec quote from Le Monde (here) Rough translation = the BEA director thinks the memory module broke apart when the plane impacted water. |
deSitter
Recorder but no memory module - isn't this unprecedented?? |
I wonder at what stage the "module memoire" broke away from what they call the "chassis". At sea-level impact or when the chassis hit the sea bed? No. In the ET409 accident, i.e. the Ethiopian B737 which came down in the sea after takeoff from Beirut on 25 Jan 2010, the CVR memory module had separated from the chassis. It was reportedly found at a later stage. And this accident was probably only ~ 1/40th of the peak possible crash energy!!! |
loss of pinger
If the FDR is that beat up, this might explain why the pinger was never detected...........
|
If my memory is correct, the pinger (locator beacon) is attached to the memory module rather than the recorder chassis. (Applies to both FDR and CVR of modern design).
It would be a logical design choice, but it would also imply that the pinger power supply batteries are housed in the same module, making it a comparatively heavy item which is more likely to drop straight down to the seabed than, for example, other parts that are mostly aluminium sheet construction. The BEA must have all this already figured out, of course. Hopefully the memory module and the CVR are soon found. |
Salute!
As promised, I shall refrain from speculation on "causes" and "design" of the plane. OTOH, fer jeeez friggin' sake!!!!! The "memory" is not encased in a stainless steel/titanium "crash survivable" container - like the the DFDR itself, and is attached to the OUTSIDE of the neat, orange qizmo!?! BEAM ME UP!!!! Oh well, we had really good data from the Columbia breakup, and that sucker went thru a lot more heating and forces than the AF jet. Had some great stuff from the Buffalo loss of control crash. Decent stuff from the Airbus back in 2001. Hmmm. And what is that beer can doofer at 1 o'clock in the pic? |
Highly optimized HF antenna
Hi, Graybeard
I will design ASAP an HF antenna based in ideas developed during our discussions. I will field test it in my RV where i currently use a moving pole plus trailing wire with SUPERB performance, ranging from 1.5 ~ 18 MHz rated 500 W rms. I operate it with a manual tuner assembled with the best material (MIL STD) used in old birds. But the moving and the height above the motor home presents an extra load to my "crew" and we hit telephone wires and trees sometimes. Now we must concentrate in the AF447 issue that will be heating up with the recent findings. Thanks for the motivation you gave me to further study an issue i was interested since 1965 and is one of my passions. HF comm. |
Originally Posted by gums
(Post 6415935)
And what is that beer can doofer at 1 o'clock in the pic?
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....s.fdr.site.jpg |
Hi,
tube .. maybe ... but pitot ??????? Notice the very good physical state of the box ! .. no evident corrosion .. etc ... That's a good premise for the other items that will be recovered as evidences for investigation. |
Why is the memory unit fastened outside the chassis (storage box)? Surely, there must be a design rationale for doing this.
I assume the same design for the CVR as well. So we have a description of a tail section supposedly sufficiently intact that the recorders are first thought to be inside that section. Now, there is at least one recorder that apparently separated on impact, and the impact forces also dislodged the memory module from its external mounting. Only saving grace at this point is that the plane settled on a flat plain, and not on the slope of a crevasse. |
Upon examination of the Honeywell link that PJ2 provided, it appears the crash survivable memory unit (CSMU) and the DFDR chassis are designed to separate. The Underwater Locator Beacon (ULB) is attached to the CSMU, and thus designed to stay with that unit in the event of chassis separation.
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BEA says that the area where the plane was found had been researched in the early phases by sonar. Nothing was detected then, and that is why they had privileged other sectors in later searches.
In French: Les recherches de détection acoustique des balises installées sur l’avion, et devant émettre un signal pendant 30 jours au moins, ont donc eu pour objet d’explorer en priorité la zone se trouvant le long de la trajectoire prévue de l’avion et, en fonction du temps et des ressources disponibles, la plus grande surface possible du Cercle. La zone où l’épave a été découverte avait donc bien été explorée par ce moyen, sans détecter les balises. Les raisons de cette non détection vont maintenant être recherchées. http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....la.phase.4.pdf It is said that they don't know why the pingers where not detected and will have to look in to this. Thanks for this great thread! |
gums,
The memory module IS supposed to be "crash survivable" on its own. Whether it parting company with the rest of the recorder assembly was also sufficiently considered is now an open question.... |
It appears that the mounting plate for the CSMU on the DFDR chassis has suffered some deformation, and there is stress indication which looks like the CSMU securing bolts have been dragged through the mounting plate.
The CSMU/ULB will not be too far away, i.e. the combo will be a straight down unit, but mass/volume means their landing will not have been soft. The silty bottom indicates to me that some technique other than visual will be needed to find them |
Originally Posted by deSitter
(Post 6415727)
And to ChristaanJ, I surely hope you have better girl-spotting skills than planes :) The A330 is a catfish - the 777 is a horizontal spacecraft!
And many many years ago I did win a local plane spotting competition, but that was still in the days where there was a difference between a Comet and a 707 or a DC-8, or between a Sabre and a Hunter.... |
The 777 is a 737 on steroids.
|
HF antenna
It is not the main subject, but somebody is interested in the aerial for décametric waves, here is some information and a photo of the leading edge of VS.
One of the recorders is located in the rear part of the plane. |
Raw data please, not your TV brand !
We are curious here ... http://i25.servimg.com/u/f25/11/75/17/84/chassi10.jpg |
Originally Posted by TOM57
(Post 6416116)
BEA says that the area where the plane was found had been researched in the early phases by sonar. Nothing was detected then, and that is why they had privileged other sectors in later searches.
The US half of the team (having been away on what turned out to be a clandestine mission to film the USS Thresher and Scorpion) then put all their chips on sending the video cameras down at the starting point and found the wreck site with barely a couple of days to spare. Deep-ocean exploration and salvage - possibly one of the hardest things in the world to get right! |
infrequent, captain scott
"lingue en bouche, s'il vous plait..." Tongue in cheek. I don't believe in faked evidence, avoiding duty, stolen flight recorders, check that last...... I believe in bias, corporate and political games, and advantaging one's friends. Not outright criminal, ok?? Until it is past time, friends get the benefit of the doubt, mine do, how about yours?? guppies that rupture after going deferred for five thousand cycles?? Mon Dieu!! Pitots that freeze and tell lies??? How many times was that, you know, before 228 people died and the pilots did a labor action?? Now listen, I believe in scepticism, harsh and unabashed. There are no mistakes in aviation, not lately. What gets trumpeted as "bad luck" is some butthole with a calculator convincing the Board it's ok to stretch service life, and hire students for complicated machining. Rudder jacks freeze, Computers go bananas, and people die. Pretending we're still at some frontier in a desperate game with physics is nonsense, we can make and fly aircraft that are levels above the current iteratae, and make a living too. Playing the fools game with wizards who do this s..t for a living is not productive.....Other than that, it is nice to see so many people still interested in this drama; I believe it may be a modern record. Don't order the chicken pot pie........ |
Originally Posted by bearfoil
(Post 6416290)
infrequent, captain scott
"lingue en bouche, s'il vous plait..." Tongue in cheek. I don't believe in faked evidence, avoiding duty, stolen flight recorders, check that last...... I believe in bias, corporate and political games, and advantaging one's friends. Not outright criminal, ok?? Until it is past time, friends get the benefit of the doubt, mine do, how about yours?? guppies that rupture after going deferred for five thousand cycles?? Mon Dieu!! Pitots that freeze and tell lies??? How many times was that, you know, before 228 people died and the pilots did a labor action?? Now listen, I believe in scepticism, harsh and unabashed. There are no mistakes in aviation, not lately. What gets trumpeted as "bad luck" is some butthole with a calculator convincing the Board it's ok to stretch service life, and hire students for complicated machining. Rudder jacks freeze, Computers go bananas, and people die. Pretending we're still at some frontier in a desperate game with physics is nonsense, we can make and fly aircraft that are levels above the current iteratae, and make a living too. Playing the fools game with wizards who do this s..t for a living is not productive.....Other than that, it is nice to see so many people still interested in this drama; I believe it may be a modern record. Don't order the chicken pot pie........ |
dozy
Take everything you see and read with a grain or more of salt. Happy skies. |
Translation from Le Monde
Detached by the Impact
"It was surrounded by debris belonging to other parts of the airplane" added the BEA [informant]. "The protected container or memory module is normally attached to the chassis. But this module is much heavier than the chassis. No doubt it came apart from the impact" with the surface of the water, explained to AFP the Director of BEA, Jean-Paul Troadec. "The container has a much greater force of inertia, it is quite possible that the container followed a different descent trajectory than that of the châssis because of currents", he explained further. I would propose obtaining a similar recorder and memory module to chuck over the side to see where they end up -- how far apart and bearing would be useful. Well it would be considerably cheaper to remove the expensive innards of the boxes, add pingers and ballast to bring the weight back to spec before chucking overboard;) Don't forget to bend the chassis frame the same as the original. |
Graybeard: The 777 is a 737 on steroids
I'm not too sure what you mean by that. The B777 is certainly a big aircraft, but the fly by wire gizmos make it a very benign flying machine, with far better handling characteristics than a B737. Boeing got the B777 right, straight out of the box, and were quite right IMHO to leave ultimate control in the hands of the pilot, not a possibly deluded box of tricks. |
Bearfoil... one day, the bean counters will understand the costs of an accident exceed the costs of safety.
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777
Sorry, 777Fly. I meant, on the ramp, the 777 "looks like" a 737 on steroids. My post followed another along the same line.
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Hi,
it is quite possible that the container followed a different descent trajectory than that of the châssis because of currents", he explained further. We know what happened with the study thereof in other phases of research .... :eek: |
I really hope they do retrieve back to the ship the FDR chassis.
Can you imagine letting it on the deep, and by some unfortunate coincidence the memory module is actually inside the chassis? The last place they would expect! Now really, it's a serious professional investigation, I'm sure they spent at least an hour of the 12 hour of the first dive circling and moving the FDR chassis. |
Le Chassis
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Originally Posted by gums
OTOH, fer jeeez friggin' sake!!!!! The "memory" is not encased in a stainless steel/titanium "crash survivable" container - like the the DFDR itself, and is attached to the OUTSIDE of the neat, orange qizmo!?! BEAM ME UP!!!!
OK, the memory module is what is packaged to survive the apocalypse. The rest is the electronics that feed that little bit of memory. If the memory module sticks to the chassis that is nice. If it breaks loose there was enough stress that it might have broken rather than come off whole if it had been secured better. Come to think of it, if the memory module separates easily it cannot get corrupted by the death spasms of the electronics module. It may have been designed to detach fairly easily for that reason. Wikipiddle has some pictures that might help you see what is going on. But the one shown with three main pieces should do it, electronics chassis, memory module, and pinger. |
NeoFit, thanks lots for that picture. It clear up just a whole lot.
I'd not call that a slot antenna. There's no slot. It function as a form of loop antenna with part of the wire really wide and the other part merely wide. It would be relatively low loss at RF. And the feed point impedance is apparently .035 ohms. I wonder if the conductors are silver plated for best efficiency. That's into a region that ought to match and work pretty well. (And it appears it's short enough resonance is not an issue until fairly high frequencies 15-20MHz.) As a loop it MAY favor radiation to the sides, though. That may not be good. the good thing for it being a loop is it's virtually immune to static electricity. Anyway - thanks for the picture. It clarified for me "where the current is going." |
If the "beer can" is much denser than the chassis, they should look back to the East of the Chassis location to have a hope of finding it. At the surface, the two items were initially together. As they settled to the bottom, the lighter chassis took longer to fall and was carried further to the West. We are about to see a practical application of the density sorting concept.
From the internal description that MM43 provided a link to, you have the memory chips surrounded by a thermal mass, which is then surrounded by insullation, which is then surrounded by an armoured shell. So why are the attaching feet on the memory module so small? It looks like a few whacks with a hammer would break them. The pinger module also looks like it could easily be sheared off the memory module. It really seems that they took weight savings to a ridiculous extreme in designing the unit and now it is a problem. As accident impacts go, the AF447 impact with the surface was relatively light. |
Can you have 'loose silt' under that pressure of water ? Even the engines weren't that dug in. Gives hope for finding the parts.
|
Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic
(Post 6416658)
Can you have 'loose silt' under that pressure of water ? Even the engines weren't that dug in. Gives hope for finding the parts.
Theoretically you could have. The pressure applies on all sides where it touches an object. As the individual sand particles are not sealed watertight the pressure will also apply from below. However, I agree it looks that the bottom is rather solid. The debris shown so far in the images is not buried at all. Especially even the heavy items like engines, gears etc. So I'm also confident that the memory module hasn't been buried significantly. On the other hand I'm also a bit at a loss why design a nice bright orange box of very specific shape and then loosely attach the important part as a rather small unremarkably shaped can onto it instead of including it into the box making the latter somewhat bigger and thereby even more easy to find !??? Somehow I have difficulties seeing the rationale behind it... |
Does seem odd that you have a nice big brightly painted orange box to help location, and then accept that the memory may depart company over differing 'inertias'. Still, presume its a standard design and there must be a reason. On the pressure issue, way I looked at it was if you put the sand in an isostatic press and applied pressure from all sides you would expect the grains to lock. Still, I have been wrong before !
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