Caractéristiques

La Capricieuse does not need refueling!

Merci for correcting my error.

From the AP:
I wouldn't think it would be difficult to identify bodies either through dental records, or teeth DNA.

Quantification of forensic DNA from various region... [J Forensic Sci. 2003] - PubMed result

Saturn

It says they dispatched the nearest available boat, "La Capricieuse", from her homeport in French Guyana.

http://www.meretmarine.com/objets/500/2469.jpg

There sure seems a lack of urgency to transport the recorders to where they can be read.

Refueling
 

Saturn V

If she cannot make the roundtrip w/o refueling in Brazil, it's probably better to do it before the recorders are onboard.:)

Saturn
La Capricieuse autonomy: 4500 nm @ 14.5 kt.

It's the position of the boat that counts.The nearest one was "la Capricieuse", based in Cayenne;
Those escort / patrol boats were designed for missions in the French EEZ (Economic exclusion zone) off the coasts of the overseas territories (DOM-TOM)
I do not know the reason for the stop over at a Brazilian port but that class has a range of some 5000 Nm, more than enough to join the site to Cayenne.
No, we ain't broke yet...:rolleyes:

If she is to stop at a brazilian port, maybe it's for a "diplomatic" visit.

Thanks again to the experts on the Marine Nationale.

With more than sufficient range, I can think of two reasons for stopping in Brazil: 1.) board Brazilian officials who may still retain some jurisdiction with regard to the bodies?, or 2.) bring aboard equipment (refrigeration, freezing) for the Ile de Sein to help preserve the bodies before they are transported.

Graybeard

There sure seems a lack of urgency to transport the recorders to where they can be read

I was thinking exactly the same. I would be interested to know why it will take another week. Maybe they want to recover everything they need for the investigation first. Recovering bodies? I do not think that is a good idea, even if the relatives want that done. Too difficult and too traumatic for the recovery personnel.

BEA to investigate failure to detect pingers
 

This article discusses BEA's intent to study the reasons for not detecting the pingers in 2009. It also contains an initial comment from Honeywell.

BEA to examine why acoustic sweep missed AF447 recorders

Various traductions
 

"Le Figaro" 14APR
Plusieurs dizaines de corps seraient présents, par 4000 mètres de fond, parmi les débris de l'avion.


C'est le sujet qui gêne les enquêteurs. Selon nos informations, «plusieurs dizaines de corps» auraient été photographiés début avril à l'intérieur de l'appareil. La plupart seraient encore attachés à leur siège, par 4000 mètres de fond. Certains seraient encore remarquablement bien conservés, deux ans après le drame, et d'autres le seraient beaucoup moins. Les vêtements encore intacts ne permettraient pas de se faire une idée précise de l'état de toutes les victimes.
Conséquences psychologiques

Les proches de l'enquête interrogés par Le Figaro rivalisent de prudence sur le sujet. Au lendemain de la découverte de l'épave, Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet, ministre de l'Écologie et des Transports, avait annoncé sur France Inter la présence de corps et évoqué la question de leur remontée en surface. «Cette annonce a été faite sans concertation, sans étude de la faisabilité de l'opération et sans avoir préalablement prévenu toutes les familles», tempère-t-on dans le milieu de l'enquête. Le projet de repêcher les corps ne serait pas non plus dans les priorités du Bureau d'enquêtes et d'analyse (BEA). «Les victimes ne sont pas le sujet du BEA, indique un membre de l'enquête. Son sujet prioritaire, ce sont les milliers d'avions qui volent tous les jours et l'enquête sur un accident dont il faut découvrir les causes pour faire progresser la sécurité. Tous les marins savent qu'on ne touche jamais à une sépulture marine: on aurait dû expliquer cela aux familles.»

Une opération de repêchage devrait être toutefois tentée et une cellule d'identification des victimes sera embarquée sur le navire Ile de Sein. Mais sans garantie de résultat. Les enquêteurs craignent que les corps ne résistent pas à la manipulation, puis à la remontée dans les eaux chaudes de l'Atlantique Sud et enfin à leur sortie à l'air libre qui pourrait provoquer une corrosion brutale. Dans l'encadrement de l'opération, on appréhende également les conséquences psychologiques de l'opération pour les personnes présentes à bord: «Après Charm el-Cheikh, des agents ont eu besoin de six mois de soutien psychologique», confie un cadre impliqué dans l'opération. Autre difficulté: les désirs contradictoires des familles de victimes. Certaines souhaitent en effet que les corps de leurs proches restent dans l'océan tandis que d'autres souhaitent les récupérer pour leur offrir une sépulture. Face à ce débat, l'État a tranché: «Des tentatives seront menées pour remonter des corps des victimes afin de répondre aux obligations de l'enquête judiciaire. S'il s'avère possible de les remonter, ils seront identifiés en France et restitués à leurs familles au plus vite.»


"Le Figaro" 14APR
Dozens of bodies would be present at 4000 meters depth amongst debris of the plane

"This is the subject that is embarrassing investigators. According to our informations, "dozens of bodies" were photographed in early April inside the aircraft. Most are still attached to their seats by 4000 meters depth. Some would be still remarkably well preserved, two years after the tragedy, and others would be much less. Clothes still intact would not allow to get a precise idea of the state of all victims.

Psychological consequences:

People close of the inquiry interviewed by Le Figaro are extremely cautious on the subject. After the discovery of the wreckage, Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet, Minister of Ecology and Transportation, announced on France Inter (French Radio) the presence of bodies and mentioned the possibility of their raising. "This announcement was made without consultation, without studying the feasibility of the operation and without having first notified all the families," one is moderating among the investigators. The proposal of raising the bodies would not be in the priorities of the BEA. "Victims are not the subject of BEA, said a member of the investigation. His priority matter are the thousands of airplanes flying every day and the investigation about an accident and its causes to improve safety. All sailors know that you never touch a sea burial: one should have explained that to the families. "

A raising operation should be attempted, however, and a cell identification of victims will be on board the ship Ile de Sein. But without guaranteed results. Investigators fear that the bodies might not stand the handling, and subsequent raising in warmer waters of the South Atlantic and finally the open air that could cause brutal corrosion. The managers of the operation, also fears the psychological consequences of the operation for the people in charge: "After Sharm el-Sheikh, some staff needed six months of psychological cares.
Another difficulty is the conflicting desires of the families of victims. Some indeed wish that the bodies of their relatives remain in the ocean while others want them back to give them a burial. Given this debate, the State has decided: "Attempts will be conducted to raise the bodies of victims to meet the obligations of the judicial inquiry. If it is possible to raise them, they will be identified in France and returned to their families as soon as possible."



"Le Figaro" 03MAY

.../...
La rupture des scellés se fera en présence d'un officier de police judiciaire. Ensuite, les cartes mémoire seront extraites de la boîte de couleur orange, nettoyées ainsi qu'asséchées. S'ils ne sont pas endommagés, les enregistrements seront exploitables quasi instantanément. Les bandes seront lues au moyen d'un magnétoscope et les cartes mémoire exploitées sur un châssis prévu à cet effet. En cas de corrosion ou de détérioration, le travail de restauration et d'exploitation des parties encore en état peut prendre davantage de temps.

Lors du crash de Perpignan (novembre 2008), les boîtes noires avaient ainsi dû être exploitées aux États-Unis chez leur constructeur Honeywell. Enfin, la dernière étape est celle de l'analyse des données proprement dites. «En quelques heures, on saura en gros ce qui s'est passé, explique un proche de l'enquête. L'analyse plus fine ainsi que la rédaction du rapport prendront en revanche plusieurs mois.» L'AF 447 pourrait donc livrer son secret à la fin du mois.

.../... (when at the BEA office at Le Bourget)

The breaking of the seals will be attended by a judiciary police officer. Then the memory cards will be extracted from the orange box, cleaned and dried. If they are not damaged, the records will be usable almost instantaneously. The bands will be read through a VCR (sic) and memory cards used on a chassis designed for this purpose. In case of corrosion or damage, restoration work and operation of preserved parts may take more time.
As an example, in the crash of Perpignan (November 2008), the black boxes had to be exploited in the United States by their manufacturer Honeywell. The final step is the analysis of data itself. "Within hours we will know basically what happened, says one close to the investigation. A more detailed analysis and report writing will take however many months. "The AF 447 could deliver his secret at the end of the month.




" Le Figaro" 05MAY
Des analyses ADN vont être pratiquées pour tenter d'identifier la victime, qui reposait par près de 4000 mètres de fond.


Un premier corps d'une victime du crash du vol Rio-Paris d'Air France a été repêché jeudi du fond de l'Atlantique, 24 heures après le début des opérations. «La dépouille, toujours attachée sur un siège de l'aéronef, apparaît dégradée», indique la direction générale de la gendarmerie nationale (DGGN). Des prélèvements ADN vont être effectués pour tenter d'identifier la victime.
.../...

DNA analysis will be performed to try to identify the victim, who lay by nearly 4000 meters.


A first body of a victim of the Air France Rio-Paris flight was recovered Thursday from the bottom of the Atlantic, 24 hours after the start of operations. "The body, still attached to a seat of the aircraft, appears degraded, " said the General Directorate of Gendarmerie (DGGN). DNA samplings will be performed to try to identify the victim.
.../...

What's the rush ? After all, we've been waiting for nearly two years, during which time all sorts of conspiracy theories have been launched.
The procedure had been announced even before the retrieval of the DFDR.
The presence of "Officers of the Law" has been explained and graphically pictured when the gendarmes performed the safe-keeping, recording and sealing procedure of the recorder containers.
Every phase of the recovery has been recorded / videoed and so far, nobody, except the Gendamerie officers ( acting here as appointed "officers of the law") has touched them.The video of that procedure,to me, in spite of the tragic set-up, was quite comical as the two BEA investigators there were visibly dying to lay their hands on the data !!
The idea is that the recorders will never leave official surveillance.
I'm curious as to the airplane that will fly them to Le Bourget. Will it be one of the Gael planes ?

and this ids the Honeywell part :That's a funny statement as, as far as we are concerned :the most likely culprits are the Pitot probes, which also "met regulatory requirements, i.e. certification criteria, but still failed.

In an earlier PR describing the recorder offloading procedure, it was noted that France was concerned that the Brazilian government may impound or restrict the movement of the recorders if they were taken to Brazilian territory.

The fueling of the French patrol boat in Brazil prior to it beginning the trek to the recovery site may be a precaution to give it enough fuel to make it to the recovery site and then direct Guiana.

I hope they are planning on flying the boxes on two different flights to be conservative.

Refueling
 

La Capricieuse dont need refueling!!

La Capricieuse (P 684)

Here is what the report mentioned :
Although the loss of flight recorder information for the last 19 minutes of the engines-out descent and landing on this occurrence did not adversely affect the investigation to this occurrence, had the circumstances been different, the lack of data following the power loss on both engines could have severely affected the ability of the investigation to make findings as to the causes and contributing factors to this occurrence.

It is not the only one, the Portuguese had also made an explicit recommendation :

SAFETY RECOMMENDATION AJ/2004
Therefore, it is recommended that the European Organization for Civil Aviation Equipment, ICAO, all civil aviation authorities and safety investigation authorities:
• Take into account the circumstances of this particular occurrence in their deliberations on the requirements for independent power supplies for on-board aircraft recordings.

As a matter of fact, I can now read from the FCOM :
The recording system is automatically active in flight (whether the engines are running or not).

Although this does not seem to apply to the CVR which will powered only if the emergency generator is supplied by the engine hydraulic pumps ...

Hi,

Actually, it is one of my worst fear after the successful recovery of both recorders; I was very confident that they would never give up and finally succeed at finding the wreckage. On the other hand, we are all obviously expecting that everything will be recorded up to the end of the flight... while this voice data recording may be stopped quite some time before she crashed (several minutes before impact), then we will be left with many speculations about what happened next inside this cockpit.

I'm 95% sure that there was no direct stall down from 35,000 fts and that she was not crashed at the end of the ACARS sequence.

Can someone explain how an aircraft may stall during five minutes from altitude without, at some early point, its engine stalling as well?

In a situation where the airfoil was compromised to the point that this airframe could not generate enough lift anymore, why would the airfoil be ok for its powerplants compressors?

Takata - Engines run on the ground or in testbeds without airspeed, wouldn't a modern FADEC with sensitive surge protection managing fuel flow maintain operation even where there is not enough air massflow/density to attempt re-light? And if engines not stalled at altitude why would they with increasing air density below 6000ft?

Previous posts suggest rate of fall fully stalled would be much greater than 6000ft/min, so a single event would have to have started later/higher, but could still end 2:14:30.

[edit: deleted ref to RAT, its the APU thats been seen]

For those of you not au fait with shipping, most Warships have a minimum fuel level they are not allowed to go below, which tends to be a significant percentage of their capacity. They also tend to refuel from tanker assets at sea if at all possible. Looking at range/economy figures in this instance may be misleading.

IMHO, Don’t expect any quick news as a result of the recorder recoveries. They still have to be examined, and here lies a very big pit fall. So many things can cause this task to be delayed, or totally not possible. Decay, corrupted data, non exsistant data due to power disruption or failure, or some other reason…..and I hesitate to mention what we all know – A government investigating itself. One could say, BEA owns a big stake in Air France, their boss, the French Gov’t, owns a big stake in Air Bus, and I wonder what the connection between the French Govt and Thales might be. Oh well, just piggy backing on earlier posts.

I hope that I am way off base. The industry deserves a true and accurate accounting of all available information. Not another CO airplane part deal. There is still a way to go. This is not over yet.

I can't imagine a scenario where she wasn't doomed at the end of the ACARS sequence, even if she managed to keep airborne for some while. So the primary reasons for the disasters should be recorded, even if recording stopped at the same time as the transmission of ACARS.

I´m not familiar with fan engines and their stall prevention capapilities, however a few thoughts from my side.

On ground testing there is no airflow at all to the engine except the flow caused by the suction of the engine, and it works anyway. So if the engine stayed alive in the beginning of the upset, could it then continue running (even in a kind of reduced performance) during the ongoing stall? Would it make any difference, wether the engines operated in a rather low powersetting at the beginning of the upset?

The engine i´m familiar with from the F-4, the J79 could stall pretty hard and flame out as well in high angle of attack situations near slow-speed or accelerated stall conditions. I expierienced a lot of those. However, that happened almost certainly when changing power setting under such extreme conditions and rarely when the throttles been kept alone, regardless of powersetting.

Engine Stall or Not?
 

takata & sensor_validation

Relative to your questions regarding engine stalling, an engine in a test cell or on the ground without any forward motion behaves in a normal manner as it is sucking air in through the nacelle inlet in a normal manner. However, an engine in the air at high altitude dropping in a somewhat flat plane at some point will stall due to significant inlet distortion, blocking normal airflow. I would think there is a reasonable probability that some of the descent from 35k feet would be recorded, but the total descent (near the end) may not be. There is a possibility the descent had two vertical velocities, a lesser velocity to begin with and a much higher velocity at some point nearer to the sea.

There has be little information at this point about the engines other than what the BEA stated, "The engines were operating normally." However, there is much more information available, real time transmission of engine data back to the airline and probably GE.

There has been mention of searching for the engine electronic controls, but as they are typically mounted on the side of the fan casing and given the catastrophic damage observed on the one photographed engine, it is doubtful they survived.

I have wondered what the shape of the other engine might be in that the plane apparently hit the water with one wing lower than the other according to the BEA. Have we seen the worst damaged engine or are they both the same?

Politics can get in the way in other ways too - Brazil refused to release info earlier in this investigation, and as someone else has already mentioned, there was a big delay in a previous investigation when the recorders had to go to the US for data extraction - a political delay in agreeing judicial custody.

So far in this crash, BEA appear to have been fairly open with what they have got - although there is plenty of disagreement with some of their analysis and conclusion :) Brazil were more of a problem early on - they took custody of the recovered bodies and then refused to release autopsy details (to the investigation, not just the public).

In contrast, look at recent Airbus crashes at Tripoli and Comoros - boxes recovered, data read (allegedly), reports... not released at all. Nothing. Maybe BEA is more independent than some here are giving it credit for, and Airbus can actually buy more influence in African countries than at home ??

CVR at least powered whether engines or not
 

The Airbus SD documentation states:

I don't have time to dig through the full electrical schematics, but power is certainly more or less directly derived from the battery via an inverter.

So, unless battery power was lost, I would expect the CVR (and by implication SSDFR - I don't have that schematic to hand...) would remain powered.

I still think that there is a very high probability that the impact occurred within a minute after the last ACARS transmission. I'm keeping an open mind as to if, when, and for how long the airplane was stalled, and what type of stall developed.

The engines don't normally stall when the airplane stalls. The engines may stall or surge when the intake is exposed to extreme angles of attack or sideslip. The airplane in cruise configuration stalls at an angle of attack that varies between 14 - 15 degrees at low altitude, and 6 - 7 degrees at high altitude. I wouldn't expect the engines to stall at angles below 30 - 35 degrees, depending somewhat on power setting. And if they stall, they don't usually flame out immediately, more likely they will surge and overtemperature.

@ sensor_validation please tell me, at which picture did you see the RAT?

Good question - it was the APU sorry!

That's interesting GY, cannot see that in my documentation which I believe to be up to date ... !?
Would you have the reference please ?
For the in flight case, would it imply the APU is running at least even if engines are not ?

Nothing in ACARS!
 

Thank you for your reply but the main issue I'm dealing with is that there was nothing sent, at least, about any engine stalling during the whole ACARS sequence from 02:10 to 02:14:30.

Hence, I'm quite far from being convinced that this airframe could have been for any length of time "fully stalled" (flat/ spin/ spiral/ whatever) during this particular time window without triggering a related ECAM warnings about some power plant issues due to abnormal attitude (outside her flight enveloppe, as it is the definition for an upset)

The full list of the related engine ECAM warnings is too long to be listed but there are some which are quite telling in this particular case:
. ENG THRUST LOSS
. ENG 1 (2) STALL
. ENG 1 (2) FAIL
. ENG ALL ENG FLAME OUT
Only the last one might be retained in the pipe as the ACARS would subsequently become inop due to SATNAV shutdown.

Moreover, A/THR was lost from the start, and the FADEC was also compromised by air data issues (as the ADRs are also playing their part in her runing cruise configuration). Then, any engine management after 02:10 would have been deprived of any automation able to optimise her power plants if there was a simultaneous full loss of control situation.

So, what I'm saying is that it is quite surprising that she could have dropped out of the sky at 02:14:30 while her engines were constantly monitored and given as operating inside a "normal" enveloppe up to this point.

Not seen any real detail about GE real time monitoring of AF447 engines, but by 2006 they received "thousands of data messages from aircraft each day" with >9000 aircraft monitored http://geaviationservicesolutions.co...006/v06i01.pdf

I would be surprised if it was much more than the AF ACARS maintenance reports, with regular 10min status plus increased reporting 'by exception' and full data uploads when in airport (but even there I am not sure WIFI would have enough bandwidth?).

Of course 100s of parameters could be recorded every second and a DVD's worth per flight BUT as per discussion about FDR streaming this is not currently feasible/economical via satellite - and surely even less so when F-GZCP was designed/certified?

Given the relative wave frequency vs velocity of impact and aircraft parameters, it is very unlikely that there was a significant different in wave height along the surfaces of the aircraft.
Impact surface of a wave would be virtually the same given the vertical vs horizontal velocity of the airframe, thus the relative weight/surface area of the components would cause the differences...

I doubt they will ever learn where the term "black box" came from. It is very old in electronics. And I bet it's even older in mechanical engineering.

unmanned transport, regarding the streamers they are a better solution to acts of God.

Now, in engineering there is an ongoing effort to make equipment idiot proof. As I was growing into the field I encountered what was then a common phrase, "No matter how good our idiot proofing; but, God always generates better idiots."

I propose that God will provide better disasters that would strip off the streamer.

(And, of course, this is no reason to give up trying.)

It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it...
 

And we ALL know what is the best fertilizer, eh?

I recall that up until the 1960's, manufacturers of electronic enclosures provided their products in only one finish: black crinkle.

Any non-commercial prototype electronics were usually enclosed in one of these products; whence, black boxes.

Yes! ...and today, 99% of the electronic boxes on a/c are still of the "black box" sort.... The only two that aren't, are the one's the bloody press continually call the "black boxes".

Sorry... that's a tangent this thread doesn't need. :(

RR_NDB, to get a feel for how the shape of the debris field was created perform a simple experiment. Take a deep glass pan or casserole and fill it nearly to the top with water. Let the water sit long enough to become still.

While the water is settling wander out to your back yard or any other place you can scoop up maybe a tablespoon of dirt. When you get back into the house drop the dirt a very little bit at a time. You'll see that some of it, the finer particles, spread out very widely. Some of it, the sand, settles quickly mostly below where you dropped your sample. Given dirt you'll see roughly three bands with sand in the middle and really fine particles spread out.

This is a variant on the test for soil used when estimating water needs for growing trees or plants. In that case you take a tall jar of water, put in about a 1/2 cup of dirt, shake it vigorously, and let it settle. Heavy stuff settles first etc. It gives a fairly good, cheap, soil quality analysis.

I think this experiment will settle in your mind where most of the distribution of the wreck likely came from.

Wouldn't evolved gasses remain in the tissues until brought to the surface, at which point they would cause damage/destruction to any remaining structure as they are emitted. Probably best to leave the dead where they are as much as possible. Easier on everyone. :ooh: