Originally Posted by RR_NDB
(Post 6465316)
BTW, What is "wiring fault" (Hard) mentioned in some earlier posts regarding ACARS sent. I am curious to understand this.
I suspect it probably translates to a "lack of signal" condition, but I would still like to know, too. |
EMI/EMC issue?
Hi,
Question: 2:13:08 FLR/FR0906010211 34220006ISIS 1,,,,,,,ISIS(22FN-10FC) SPEED OR MACH FUNCTION,HARD 2:13:14 FLR/FR0906010211 34123406IR2 1,EFCS1X,IR1,IR3,,,,ADIRU2 (1FP2),HARD 2:13:16 ~ 2:13:41 Possible "Loss of Signal" with satellite Could be this facts be associated to Lightning? And subsequently: 2:13:45 WRN/WN0906010213 279002506F/CTL PRIM 1 FAULT 2:13:51 WRN/WN0906010213 279004006F/CTL SEC 1 FAULT A very strong "interference" can even reset a System and in extreme cases damage buses ("connections" between sub systems), etc. I know Airbus SAS redundancy is also on the physical location of critical modules. And i know the a/c interior is protected (inside a Faraday shield). And also the lightning activity at that night was reported as "low" at the region. |
mm43, do you fly A340 and not A330?
some of your comments do not apply to the A330. |
This puzzles me a bit. Decades ago when I was a student at Navy Test Pilot School, <snip> I preferred minimal stick motion with aircraft response determined by stick forces. Nello informed me that the vast majority of pilots also preferred that configuration. One of the realities that plague video game designers is the fact that as we age one of the first skills that is lost is what is known as "fine motor control," especially in the hands. FMC does not refer to reaction time; it has to do with the ability to make small, discrete movements as opposed to large sweeping ones. People who suffer from poor FMC often appear to be "overreacting" physically to the stimulus but it's not a reaction problem. I have long wondered if poor FMC isn't the true explanation behind this crash: American Airlines Flight 587 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I'd bet my bottom dollar that if your old teacher put a group of 45 year olds who had never piloted before in that test,he'd get very different results. |
Originally Posted by RR_NDB
(Post 6465316)
To say you what happens to me when i realize the "circuitry" amount and complexity used (required) in highly complex FBW a/c.
Just a detail: You need to use 3X (acting as 5X) redundancy. Approaching the one used in the STS fleet now retiring. I agree 100%. And will use this to ask: What´s your feeling (on this issue) on the Revolution (rdware and Software/algorithms[/]) EA introduced using DFBW technology (for the first time in non military planes)? With it´s big implications. Why US didn´t introduce "in parallel"? But this is for another post or even another thread. DFBW was proven in military terms for a decade before the A320 started carrying passengers, and I think that was a more than reasonable lead time. The US did not openly develop FBW airliners in tandem, but the B777 followed hot on the heels of the A320 - as such I suspect that something similar was on the drawing board as the A320 progressed from the testing phase to production and service. The only difference between the latest generation of Boeing aircraft and that of Airbus is that Airbus developed a new control philosophy based around the new systems, whereas Boeing had their FBW systems drive a facsimile of a "traditional" flight deck environment. The "ain't Boeing, ain't going" crowd like to say that they don't trust computers in charge of their aircraft, but the B777 (and presumably the B787) is as reliant on it's computers as any Airbus FBW model. |
the right answer is: it is impossible to extrapolate the direction of a turbulent flow.... but why they do not started this experiment one year earlier ? |
Fine Motor Control
MountainBear: I wonder if you would still feel that way today. One of the realities that plague video game designers is the fact that as we age one of the first skills that is lost is what is known as "fine motor control," especially in the hands. FMC does not refer to reaction time; it has to do with the ability to make small, discrete movements as opposed to large sweeping ones. People who suffer from poor FMC often appear to be "overreacting" physically to the stimulus but it's not a reaction problem. |
Failures (BEA rprt #2, pg 36)
Hi,
"lack of signal" condition A (HARD) failure as mentioned strongly motivates me to go deeper in the issue. NAV TCAS FAULT (2 h 10): ... it could be the consequence of an electrical power supply problem or of an external failure. F/CTL PRIM 1 FAULT (2 h 13): ...or be the result of a failure. F/CTL SEC 1 FAULT (2 h 13)...or be the result of a failure. 1.16.2.4.3. Interruption of the messages: ... loss of one or more system(s) essential for the generation and routing of messages in the aircraft: ATSU / SDU / antenna... or loss of electrical power supply: this would imply the simultaneous loss of the two main sources of electrical power generation. Intriguing: A redundant System possibly hit by multiple failures. Question: What kind of "external stimuli" (to a redundant "electric/electronic" System) has the ability to make it (possibly) fail in that way? Note: BEA analysis on above msgs. show first other possible reasons and is not conclusive (by lack of further info.; ACARS is for other purpose). |
jcjeant,
.. this material (the black boxes) are exhibits to the prosecution of the court process. The BEA report (the result of their analysis) is not an exhibit. It therefore not falls under the same sections of law protecting the exhibits. That's the point I want to put emphasis (BEA report is not part of the judicial process) And very sneaky, too : By that one sentence, you now have everything for criticizing the french system, the BEA independence, the weakness of the French judicial conclusions and penalties involved (they have nothing to prove anything!)...Unfortunately for you, it's also an absolute BULL**** ! This is an excerpt of the bill instituting the BEA and its duties and priviledges : L. 1621-5 Le procureur de la République reçoit copie du rapport d’enquête technique en cas d’ouverture d’une procédure judiciaire. Try again |
Lemurian
I was trying my best to figure that one out. Thanks for the ennabling legislation. Do you have more of the Law ? Maybe I'll just withdraw from the discussion, I didn't get much of the Concorde proceedings, either. |
ACARS / Satellite Signal Failure
Hi folks.
As to the ACARS, we know for sure that at least one message would have been sent by the aircraft (60 seconds after preceding event) that should have been received between 2h15m00s and 2h15m14s. (BEA Report, 17-12-2009, p 36ff) At least BEA will know by now (FDR), whether this non-occurrence of the expected class 2 fault message is due to (1) the sudden end of the flight at that point in time or due to (2) satellite communication issues in the storm or even (3) fatal electronic failures in the aircraft. BEA reported a minor technical issue with the radio management panel at takeoff from Rio, but it appears insignificant as it has not been followed up by further info (at least to my knowledge). (BEA Report, 02-07-2009, p. 70) Perhaps we will find out during the announced press conference this upcoming week, why and how the flight met its tragic end only about 6nm from the LKP at 02h10m, despite the operations center receiving messages until 02h.14m.26s (important: we cannot conclude that it was transmitting until then!). In fact, we know little more than three months ago, and the recovery of the CVR and FDR this close to the LKP has raised more questions than it provided answers. Based on the sea drifts, we know at least that the calculations with regard to the point of impact by the US Coast Guard, the Brazilian Navy and the US Navy (BEA Report 17-12-2009, p. 80) appear to have been very accurate back then. |
Testability issue
Hi,
Airbus developed a new control philosophy based around the new systems don't trust computers in charge of their aircraft but the B777 (and presumably the B787) is as reliant on it's computers as any Airbus FBW model. A question, regarding "predictability" of a complex "electric/electronic" a/c: A test 787 (ZA001) was hit by a lightning bolt and survived. (landed). During the Test phase or Certification process, the airliners are "lightning tested"? Or expressing in another way: It´s really impossible (indeed near zero probability) to "reset" or even damage the wiring/buses if the a/c is hit by a powerful "cloud-cloud" bolt? I know the several cases, Iran Air Force 747, JP case, IIRC a P3 in US, etc. that went down (for mech. reasons). My question is on the "Testability" issue on that specific subject. An a/c after an UAS issue being hit in it´s nose section by a "very intense current" (thousands of amps), facing severe turbulence (with the crew in a "dark" cockpit, interior lights dim*) can become "faulty"? Or, What can cause "multiple failures" in a "redundant computer system"? (*) No significant lightning activity that night. old pick-up truck engine They used 68000s in some of those STS systems. Again - relatively obsolete technology, but comparatively simple and predictable. |
Tactile feedback and "old" hands
I gotta go with Smilin' Ed.
Trouble with a small stick that moves 30 degrees or so off-axis is you really can't tell instinctively if you're commanding half or a third or three quarters or.... Larger sticks such as those on jet fighters are easier to figure out whether you are commanding max or half or... If the small stick has a good "load" to it that requires greater and greater pounds of pressure along the way, then could be a player. Viper stick moved zero originally. See the black-nosed Block I jets I flew in mid 1979. Block 5 modified the stick for 1/8 inch of movement. Breakout force to command gee or roll rate was same, but theoretically the stick stopped moving when you reached "X" pounds for pitch or roll. Apparently, someone thot we would then stop pulling more. Seems that a few guys were pulling over 100 pounds in a fight to ensure they were asking for all the jet could give!! I never noticed, to be honest, the ham fist I was. I fly the online sim Warbirds and use a simple stick that is very stiff. The gimpy ones that move a lot and move easily are harder to use for fine corrections. |
Safety Concerns
Some of your comments do not apply to the A330 Yes, rudder travel is limited as follows:-- A340 - 31.6° and 3.5° A330 - 35° and 4° A corrected RTLU graphic is at post #109. Not the only time I have made the mistake.:\ |
Originally Posted by RR_NDB
(Post 6465494)
Introduced more than FBW: a new control philosophy.
A test 787 (ZA001) was hit by a lightning bolt and survived. (landed). During the Test phase or Certification process, the airliners are "lightning tested"? An a/c after an UAS issue being hit in it´s nose section by a "very intense current" (thousands of amps), facing severe turbulence (with the crew in a "dark" cockpit, interior lights dim*) can become "faulty"? Or, What can cause "multiple failures" in a "redundant computer system"? Right! (Nerdy aside : I know that the 68k series was much more friendly to program at assembler level than the 8086 series, but that's not really relevant here...)
Originally Posted by gums
(Post 6465497)
If the small stick has a good "load" to it that requires greater and greater pounds of pressure along the way, then could be a player.
I fly the online sim Warbirds and use a simple stick that is very stiff. The gimpy ones that move a lot and move easily are harder to use for fine corrections. * - Hence why I know about the 68k |
Hi,
(The Prosecutor for the Republic is to receive a copy of the technical investigation report in case of the opening a prosecution case).Which is, btw, what has happened as Air France and Airbus are in a manslaughter lawsuit. The copy of the investigation report (who is also public) it's just a information document and can't be used by prosecutors for point any responsible or irresponsible people or corporation The only reports used will be those show at the court by the experts named for this case. Those can be interrogated also by the judge of instruction and will also be called by the judge in the court when the trial run. The BEA can also be interrogated by the judge of instruction or at the trial ... but the BEA report is not a exhibit for the court ... Only will be exhibit .. the judiciary experts reports ... even if it's a conform copy of the BEA report. BEA experts are not judiciary experts (otherwise .. how BEA can be independent of justice?) Again refer to the last trial in France about aviation accident (the Concorde trial who is even not yet closed as AF and Continental are going in appeal) Wait for the AF447 trial ... (in how many years ??) ......... |
At this point we don't even know if the computer system had anything to do with the loss of the aircraft, so we're into heavy speculation by even bringing it up! seems to be the simplest chain without invoking gremlins. |
Smilin_Ed said
One configuration was to have the stick (or yoke, I can't remember which) move large distances for small control surface movements but with little force required. The opposite configuration was to have the stick "locked in concrete" and all control surface movements responding only to stick forces. My instructor, Nello Infanti, asked which I preferred. I preferred minimal stick motion with aircraft response determined by stick forces. Nello informed me that the vast majority of pilots also preferred that configuration. I would think that, when finding it necessary to fly current FBW aircraft using the stick, that precise control would be more difficult using stick deflection rather than stick forces. The control input should match the physical stress of acceleration, because the pilot has to "feel" how to fly the airplane based on what it's doing to his body. |
Originally posted by RR_NDB ...
NAV TCAS FAULT (2 h 10): ... it could be the consequence of an electrical power supply problem or of an external failure. http://oi53.tinypic.com/1zbxshl.jpg |
Where is the TCAS antenna?
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