737-800 Raw Data App
 

I am having problems with my raw data ILS app, weather down to minimums.
What is happening is this; I am doing VREF + 25 and the tolerance is 5. I am not on my glide slope and loc.
Please need help ASAP regarding a SIM assessment, and YES I HAVE BEEN USING THE FPV (BUT I DON’T KNOW IF I AM USING IT RIGHT).

In short - sod the FPV.

Fly target VS for the GS - use your trackline on the bottom of the PFD to fly the LOC, and configure to F30/40 as required when you intercept the GS and leave the thrust mostly alone when you have a reasonable figure.

Simples!

Datum thrust and pitch and you can't go wrong. Be level FL5 at the platform. You will be at around 5 degrees and 58%. At about 1 dot go Gear down flap 15, don't touch the thrust! At GS capture go Flap 30, again don't touch the thrust. Nail your 1 degree pitch and you should be Vref30+5 ish.

The biggest mistake is when you get GS capture as there is a significant balloon. Make sure you NAIL 1 degree. 1 degree and 58% will see you good all the way down. Make minor corrections. Don't let the pitch go below 0 or above 2.5 and keep heading changes within 10 degrees.

Slowly, slowly catchy monkey

Best way to describe the pitch is put the 2.5 degree line on the top of the box.

Perhaps a more appropriate question is why your flying a raw data ILS down to minimums to begin with? Use the flight director. That's what it's there for.

Are we talking flightsim or the real aircraft? :cool:

Procedural/by the book or real world continuous descent?

In the real thing and real world there are many ways to skin the approaching cat.

Raw data ILS is required in the skills test/check ride for JAA

flying smooth
 

er, that should read -

halve the ground speed and add a zero.

(or halve the first two figures of the gnd spd and add two zeros)

Having your vs more in your approach instrument scan is v important, the last glance being at the 100' call approaching the threshold to ensure everything vertical is under control. Flying the vs helps avoid 'chasing' the glideslope indication and the overcorrection that invariably results.

Thanks guy, Iam about to get in the SIM next week, 58% sounds good

don't forget to TRIM THE DARN THING

once you are on speed and vertical speed for the conditions, you should be able to trim hands off.

in the sim it works better as there isn't the real wind vagueries

ONE OTHER THING...airplanes with underwing engines pitch up when you add power and pitch down when you reduce power...if you get into it, you might see that when you addpower (push forward on throttles/thrust levers) you need to push forward on the yoke a bit and vice versa

You are not on profile, LOC or GS and not stable, in other words, you cannot fly an ILS? or are you saying that you were on profile except for the last 100 feet or so, then it all went sideways after coarse pilot input?

if you are chasing the needles you have fundamental problems

improve your instrument scan...don't fixate

fly the ILS in VISUAL conditions to get a better understanding of displacement from the glidepath.

the idea of an ils is to find a descent rate, airspeed, heading to make good the glidepath...not to constantly chase the needles

BACK TO BASICS YOUNG BIRDMAN

OK, if it is a sim check they will probably vector you for a 30 degree intercept rather than put you on the ILS. Configure to F5 and use the FPV while you are in level flight well before the intercept, this will give you the datum pitch and power. Anticipate the LOC and make smooth inputs, do not chase it, as you see it coming from say the left, a normal rate turn will get you established no problems. Once on the LOC take gear down, flap 15, ignore the normal rationale of waiting for GS, this will reduce your workload and, as mentioned, you will need about 56/58 N1.
At GS Capture take flap 30 and accept the small speed excursions, but not less than MCP Speed (-5/+10kts limits), do not chase performance.
Once established on the GS, make very small inputs, the a/c is naturally stable, it is always PIO that mess it up.
Make small thrust changes to avoid the pitch/power couple displacing the GS.
At the bottom of the GS, no changes more than 2/3 degrees in roll and 1 degree in pitch should be needed, use the sky pointer and the track line. If you nail the track line all you have to worry about is pitch and speed.
A good technique is to imagine how you would talk someone through the ILS and then do it yourself. Good luck.

Are you talking about pseudo raw data or serious raw data? Big difference.
Forget trackline stuff. Forget the bird too. Use EHSI mode which is heading up and where you have a whacking great localiser in front of you rather than trying to track a tiny itsy bitsy localiser on your PFD. It is easy to see the drift angle and better still if there is any decent crosswind you will instinctively see in what direction to look through the windscreen when you look for the runway. And don't forget to start glancing up as part of your scan when approaching 2-300 ft above the DH in order to pick up early visual cues. Presumably you have the autothrottle turned off of course.

Kirks Gusset:
I like your advice and will try it out next week, thanks

Spooky 2: Wouldn't you consider it bare essentials for a pilot to be able to perform a raw date ILS down to minimums? Perhaps the more appropriate question is why is your first advice to a pilot with handling difficulties simply to use more automation?

OP: It's all about knowing what settings to use.

pitch: from 3° to 1° up depending on flap setting and wind. If you are pitching outside of those values you will deviate eventually.

anticipate lift vector changes. F1/2/5/10/15 = anticipate trim down (ballooning) and F25/30/40 anticipate a heavier control column (more drag).

thrust: Target value for F30 or F40 landing should be your landing weight in metric tons for a still wind approach. For example. 62.000kg landing = roughly 62%. From that setting you adjust 1% maybe 2% depending on the actual wind conditions. I find this to be a better aid than just "put it at 58%" since in my outfit we land from up to 65 tons all the way down to 50 tons. Needless to say 58% is off by a long shot in those case. However, it is a ballpark figure.

scan: dump the FPV, it's utter rubbish. Your best tool to stay on glide is your V/S indicator. V/S should roughly be half your groundspeed as said earlier. 200 knots groundspeed : +/- 1000 fpm. and so on. In fact, if you kept your attitude within the numbers above this should translate into a more or less correct V/S indication. If you are off in pitch, there's no way your V/S indication will be correct. So you see that the aircraft is actually constantly telling you if you are doing good or not.

That's how it was thought to me, that's how I fly it.

Better change the instructor in the box
.Find one that can teach you how to fly raw data.

Uh, how the hell can one secure a job flying a B737 without ever having learnt how to fly an instrument approach? It is NOT difficult. It is, in fact, very easy. :rolleyes:

I suggest before entering the sim(when you get the zfw) to look at the (unreliable airspeed section in qrh) which will give you pitch and thrust for your landing weight.
When you get the glide slope to capture start to pitch for the value of geardown/flaps 30 (around 2.5 degrees for 800 and 1.5 for 900s) then select gear down and lower flaps.
Speed will stay about same as you are adding drag(gear,flaps) while starting to descend.57-58% N1 should be ok.
When you get to 500ft,pitch must be decreased a little (-1deg),900 s reduce from1.5 nose up to nearly nose to horizon.
At minimum,dont make any inputs and you should stay within standard criteria.
For lateral, i suggest you use the track mode as you will see corrections to be made even before the loc displacement occurs.
Remember,make few degrees corrections should allow you to stay within the parameters all along.

Good luck!
Crossunder,some are slower to get to standard as others,but because they know and accept their weakness,they will get better than others over time.
Raw data to minimum vis is not easy and demands some high concentration.
At 160 kts on app speed on a 900 to minimuma with full house in the back will-get any pilot full attention.(even with flight director).