Logging hours as Safety Pilot
 

Hi!

I'm working as a B737 F/O at the moment, and during the last days, I was scheduled some flights as Safety Pilot for new F/O's who are not still released. May I log these flights as Safety Pilot as Copilot time in my logbook (JAR)?

Thanks!

I just log those hours as co-pilot since in my logbook there is no such thing as a "safety pilot" box.

Anyway, as a required member of the crew you can log them.

I forgot to mention during this flights I don't take the controls at any moment. I'm just seated on the jumpseat except in case of an emergency or any other abnormal situation...

I have done the same and I log those hours as copilot.

You are the 'qualified' crew member and therefore you log the hours as Co-Pilot. The trainee is NOT qualified to act in the full role until signed off by a training captain. Therefore, in the event of an emergency, he will be ejected and you will be inserted into the RHS to conduct the duties for which you are carried.

Have fun

p.s. You should also get any sector pay attributable to the training sectors. Always check ;)

W2P

From my understanding you cannot log the time as safety F/O on B737. You are not part of the required crew for the aircraft. You are required only because of the training system. The trainee is qualified to sit in the RHS under the supervision of a training captain.

You're not allowed to, but chances are, even if you do log them, no one will ever cross-check yours and your colleagues-in-training logbooks and you will never get caught.

I log them as copilot.

Interestingly enough, LASORS 2008 (UK CAA) "Guide to logbook annotation" (Section A/Appendix B) states the following:

OPERATING CAPACITY
Pilot on flight deck but not as P1, P2, SPO or FE:
(i) Acting as ‘required’ Flight Navigator (under the Air Navigation Order);
(ii) Pilot supervising Co-pilot activities;
(iii) No duties assigned (Supernumerary);

DESIGNATION IN LOG BOOK
(ii) P2

RECORDING OF ITEM
Enter as for case C.

CASE C --> Co-pilot, P2, Enter time in ‘Second pilot’ or in ‘Co-pilot (P2)’ column.

Is it really true that a pilot can legally log instrument flying time while eating his lunch and chatting up the hostie on the flight deck and watching the automatic pilot do it's thing?

In the old days pilots were only permitted to log instrument flying time if they actually flew the aircraft in IMC as against "monitoring" an autopilot. There would seem to be no point in logging hours watching an autopilot as there is no manipulative skills required for that task. It's rather like congratulating the pilot on his superb skill on the ILS and landing when it was an autoland

That is still true in many parts of the worlds. However JAR just requires you to log operational condition and one of them is operating under IFR rules, you still can log IMC time in an additional or the remarks column if you like, it is just not required.

historical note
 

The USN had the NH-1 instrument trainer during the big one. It had conventional LHS/RHS plus a limited panel and flight controls for a student in the curtained cabin behind the LHS. Also an instructor's seat alongside the student.

I have heard (from the fellow who invented this layout) that when it was first proposed to the Army about 1938, they laughed him out of the place.

But the Navy loved it, because four aviators (two in front, two in back) could log time in the same single-engine airplane! :ok:

Wow! Wot a minefield, but steady those ambitious enough to try logging supernumerary as P2. I don't believe it!

1) Simple logic. The TRE is P1 and so the stude is P2. No question about that. There cannot be two P2s. So NO, you can't log it as P2 as well.

2) Simple logic. If you were not there you cannot log it either.

3) Simple logic. If FO were under any other test (LPC) and you happened to be on jumpseat you couldn't log that either.

4) You , as safety pilot, are not "supervising" Co-pilot activities. You are acting as a supernumerary observer to the crew as a whole. I believe the above quote is to cover a trainer in the jumpseat supervising an FO in his capacity as a trg capt (perhaps with a cruise capt in LHS??). A supernumerary observer is not legally required as "crew" by the licencing authority so has no defined "legal" role, therefore cannot log it. (see JetMan's post)

5)...How Professional.

NOT!

Answer. NO

Relax, Champignon. Next time I'll mark my post with :E to make my point clearer (for some).

No need to invoke logic; relevant for the logging of P2 hours is JAR-FCL 1.080 (c). It says that copilot time can only be logged from the pilot's seat. Now pay attention kids: there are only two pilot's seats on any ole aeroplane currently engaged in commercial air transport in JAAland. Jumpseat is (surprise, surprise) not a pilot's seat.

What I wrote about 'no chance of being caught' is, sadly, only half-a-jest. The practice of logging co-pilot time from jumpseat is quite widespread in some parts of JAAland and ones who do not indulge in it, put themselves in disadvantage relative to their peers who do. Especially as some local CAAs have problems even catching people who outright falsify their loogbooks by logging flights that never took place. At least, for jumpseat ride there's journey log that matches your logbook.

You think I'm exagerating? Well, not everyone replying here was joking.

New copilot (P2) log book hours reality check . . .
 

Irrespective of how many hours you write in your log book, your true experience level will immediately become apparent when you sit in the seat and hand fly the airplane or the simulator. The instructor will know right away if your logged hours are commensurate with your performance.

Hand flying ability = experience
 

Sorry, but not so. There are many with few hours that hand fly great, and many with thousands upon thousands of hours in type that engage the autopilot at 400', and disengage it as low as possible. Sim checks encourage pilots to use all resources available to them, which includes the autopilot. Sims are usually so packed with emergencies anyway that there is no time to practice hand flying. RVSM requires autopilot engagement except under some contingencies. So, hand flying suffers if you're 'monitoring' or sitting in the jump-seat. It doesn't mean anything.

The truth is that unless someone is padding the logbook with LOTS of time, no one will know. Unfortunately, many do it. As cheating becomes the norm to get what you want, the 'bar' is raised. After awhile many feel compelled by that survival instinct to do the same. Using the logbook as a means of proving experience, and thus obtaining employment is a flawed as it gets.

Any better ideas on how to measure one's worth as an employable pilot?

Yes.

Ensure that you remain Professional to the core.

(ie, not dishonest and cheating in your log book for a start.)

If you're not, you're in the wrong job.

professionalism?
 

Ok. I agree, change everyone's morals and ethics and the problem is resolved. Good luck. People always have, and always will justify their actions. So, while it may be easy to say remain Professional, that is abstract, and unattainable. There will always be....ummm, many.

Your comment doesn't answer my statement that the number of hours someone chooses to say they have (even if it is true) doesn't equate to safety, competency, or professionalism.

Or are you saying that if someone has, oh, 'X' number of hours total time then they're experienced, safe, and professional? If so, then how many hours?

Oh, and if you're using the third person plural as 'you' then ok. If you're directing it toward me you're wasting your time. I already have an airline job that I have worked for many, many years to have BECAUSE I choose to not falsify my logbook. I have paid for that decision as my contemporaries have lied about their experience and are now way ahead of me. However, ethics aren't exactly contagious.

Besides being the obvious master of automation, all sim checks every six months include engine-out hand flown pattern circuit, including hand flown flight director or raw data LOC/ILS intercept and approach and go-around. And if you can't accurately hand fly the maneuvers then you bust your check! Hand flying currency and accuracy is an integral part of the job, but it doesn't mean that you would hand fly the airplane in busy airspace while in a holding pattern in IMC waiting for your slot time to land at LHR. :ooh:

handflying
 

So, are you saying that the 'checking' that is done every 6 months allows one to maintain 'hand-flying' skills? It doesn't. So, don't even try to say that the hand flying done in a sim check every 6 months allows one to handfly the aircraft well. It doesn't. If someone handflies well it's because they personally choose to not engage the auto-pilot until level-off perhaps, and to disengage and handfly the approach as much as possible.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't change my comment that a pilot with 20,000 tt that chooses to engage the autopilot at 400' after takeoff, and disengage at the last possible moment before landing, will have poor handflying skills.

Don't confuse being able to handfly an emergency procedure in the sim, to at least minimum standards, and getting a pass, with being able to handfly the aircraft well. Two different discussions.

Keep to topic. My origional comment was that handflying skills suffer, and total time is not an accurate representation of skill, experience, judgement, professionalism, etc.