'Empty' Operations on passenger aircraft
 

What does your airline do to help your pilots on these flights (long range ones in particular) especially with regard to;

Training for cabin fire fighting and fire watch;

Training in use of galley procedures where hot food is to be provided and how to manage galley equipment 'problems';

Training related to safe food handling;

Procedures to ensure any rest taken in flight does not result in both pilots asleep?

Last time I did one (Goa to Gatwick), we had a cabin crew chap with us as well.

What sort of duties was he supposed to undertake i.e Firewatch; pre-departure security/ cabin prep checks? Does your company allow empty flights with only two pilots?

AFM limitations section:
Min Crew 2

Normal procedures
Normal Ops
Everything else is jobsworth and not required.

Rather strange off the cuff questions! Perhaps you could explain what is your interest in order the answers may be more directed towards your sphere of interest?

As far as fire training, this is part of annual training for pilots which involves occasional extinguisher discharge under Fire Service supervision. Pilots are well briefed on Emergency equipment and locations and all aspects of handling airborne fires.

Pilots are not trained to handle food, but eminently qualified to eat it. Freight dogs may be trained in food handling, but from what I can see, they probably don't even bother to cook it. Just stick a little stick in it and suck it in their seats like a giant lollipop.

Long range flights have relief crews with opportunities for rest in rotation. Difficult to answer more without knowing why you wish to know.

I suspect his interest is the forthcoming spell of freighter flying in BA due to cabin crew shortages.

Most small and modern airliners can be flown by two pilots. But some of them complain that it is not enough, and that a flight engineer makes a real difference in handling in-flight emergencies.

It is legitimate to fly an airliner by one pilot - briefly. The main legitimate excuse for this is a toilet break. The pilot left in the cockpit is supposed to wear an oxygen mask while alone.

Another legitimate excuse is "controlled rest", with one pilot sleeping in the cockpit seat and the other awake and alert.

A passenger airliner with passengers and flight attendants on board has the attendants in cabin. In case of a cabin fire, the attendants are trained to fight the fire in cabin while the pilots can fly the plane and use whatever cockpit controls are still functioning to deal with the matter.

Are the pilots instructed to stay in cockpit at all emergencies (and return there if an emergency happens during a toilet break), or are they trained and allowed to go to the cabin to fight the fire while the other pilot reads checklists and deals with all the technical failures alone?

Again, when pilots fly with passengers and flight attendants, the flight attendants normally cook/warm meals for the pilots as well, and bring them to cockpit.

If the pilots fly just two of them and without attendant, is a pilot prepared to go back to galley to cook a meal, stay away from cockpit till it is completed (and possibly deal with the galley breaking down) and return, while the other pilot is flying the plane alone?

Also, pilots should try and avoid both pilots falling asleep simultaneously. But if it actually does happen, a cabin attendant can open the cockpit door and if neither pilot is awake to override the door opening, the attendant awakens the pilots. If there are just two pilots aboard, this is not an option.

Why? Is there any reason to suspect the current rules are deficient or is this just another crusade to fix a problem that doesn't exist?

Journo perhaps?

Not a Journo (perish the thought) just looking to see if there are differences between different airlines in standards of operating such flights. Current Operating Procedures in some operators may well be deficient in this area especially in light of changes to the health and safety legislation that now applies to passenger aircraft.

An FAA report shows that worldwide in-flight fires, smoke or fumes events account for 3 precautionary landings per day (1999 figures). Fire detection and suppression systems in aircraft cabins are normally toilet smoke detectors and or human – arguably inadequate for empty operations on passenger aircraft, especially when compared to systems installed in the passenger aircraft holds or those in dedicated cargo/freighter types.

Have airlines considered the risks involved in these operations or how to minimise or mitigate the effects of them? Shouldn’t airline management address concerns about aspects of their operations put forward by the pilots and treat them as genuine attempts to enhance safety rather than irritating distractions from the business of running an airline?

The risk involved in not complying to a change in the health and safety regulations?

CS25 sets the requirement. The operators meet it as layed down in the AFM. No pax = less risk not more!!

The risks involved should be determined by a Risk Assesment.

Please tell us why you think it's riskier than a flight with cabin crew on board. :E

Because if there is no cabin crew and the passenger cabin is empty, there is no one around to detect fires early or fight them while both flight crew remain in cockpit flying the plane and handling their systems controls.

It is true that with no one in cabin, there is less chance of a fire breaking out to begin with. But does this outweigh and more than outweigh the problems detecting and fighting a fire if and when it does break out?

In each instance that I have previously dealt with smoke or fire indication, the pilots had to inform the cabin crew. :eek:

On the 74F, we turn oven on, set it for 20mins, insert food (minus any plastic bits). When said oven goes "ding", one puts oven gloves on, removes food, consumes same (after of course removing oven gloves - makes it easier to hold knife & fork).

Should anything turn to poo, there is a circuit breaker on the oven & a fire extinguisher (trained in use of) at arm's length.

;)

Monkeys (and Freight Dogs) trainable in about 5 mins for said task.

Is the galley left unattended whilst the food is heating and are there any smoke detectors in the galley area if not?

Have you been given any form of instruction or advice by your company with regard to safe food handling and so on?

Sometimes to first part, no to second part. Detectors would complicate having a ciggie :}

Handling food: You gotta be kidding, right? :rolleyes: I personally make sure I use the bathroom before cooking, not washing hands of course. :confused:

Make it so

Risk Assessment, Domestic Science instructions!!!!! H & S is yet another manufactured industry a la security. Adds considerable cost and zero value.

What ever happened to common sense?