Loganair does have exemptions for these kind of operations.

Andy

Loganair have altered their BN2 SOPs considerably in recent times. They operate non-precision approaches to the now termed CDA (Company Decision Altitude) i.e; +50ft, then immediate go-around. No level off (Except Barra) and thus no potential of destabilising the approach at low altitude and no low-level flight to the MAP.

By the way. His name was Guy, not Gus.

ACA

I don't know about previous training methods, but I can say that night training into Barra, Bute and the North Isles is conducted nowadays before the relevant route certificates are issued.

Night ops. into 500m strips (with the exception of Bute with its PAPIs) are only conducted in Orkney and Shetland in the North Sea and it could be a hard surface or a grass surface depending on the wind, in most cases lit by battery lamps - however the orkney isles will soon have permanent runway lighting. It must be remembered that the North Isles are known like the back of each pilot's hand as daily scheduled services are flown in and out of the isles day VFR - up to 21 sectors in a day.

The night flying in the majority of the Western Isles (except Barra) is to airports with all their associated aids and facilities.

I certainly don't believe that the current Loganair operation is dangerous and wonder what a second pilot would do to remain awake on an Islander.

RIP Guy.

I guess he/she would participate fully in the operation of the aeroplane and share the workload, enhanceing flight safety - just as they do on all other 2-pilot aeroplanes.

If you have flown an aeroplane of the Islander class with 1 pilot and with 2 you soon realise how much lighter your wokload is with the second brain/set of eyes and hands on board.

Sincere condolences to all at Loganair on their sad loss

Mad Jock

I think you will find that the helicopters you question about have been in place providing a service to the Scottish Ambulance Service for several years working out of Inverness and Glasgow. I think you can therefore take it that they are quite familiar with operating in the highlands of Scotland both day and night.

The helicopter service has been 24 hrs for a number of years, the 135 is a good machine, full glass cockpit, a v. good autopilot inlcuding auto ILS, radar, moving map, gps, rad alt. The aircraft is full single-pilot IFR and all the pilots are IR. You should see some of the night landing sites they use! (and hovering is natural in a helo). Your comments seemed, unfairly, dispariging about both the helicopters and their crews.

"There is always something great about watching an islander hover landing across a runway when nothing else can get in."

Having operated on Highlands and Islands routes for nine years, I never saw a Loganair Islander do what you suggest. When and where did you see this?

Bond have been operating Bo105s and EC135s for some time in Scotland now in extreme weather and at night. I am bemused as to why they would experience "a steep learning curve" when they "come on line". Are they not "on line" already?

If you wish to name victims in person at least extend them the courtesy of getting their name correct.:rolleyes:

Did Air Ambulance work in Australia with B200 and PC12 aircraft.

Straight in GPS approaches were preferred that would get us down to about 500' AGL aligned with the runway. I personally think circling NDB approaches at night are a silly idea.

With EGPWS and Rad Alt you get enough prompting of the minima. Also had an electronic checklist that would scroll through with a button press on the yoke that also went into the headset, and a visual display. Aircraft had 3 GPS, one for navigation, one for EGPWS, one for the colour moving map. Along with GPS course bar information on the HSI lines you up with the runway.

No need for an additional pilot, and with the smaller aircraft it takes away from the payload available, would rather have extra fuel than an extra pilot.

Is the BN2 and the kit fitted inside the best tool for the job ?

Condolances to all for their loss.

I don't have a problem with the Islander for the job. Many of the runway's are under 450 or 500m, with one only 381m.

A possible replacement would be a Cessna Caravan. The short fuselage version with the higher HP engine. The catch is the 381 m runway. A C208 *might* be able to do it with the same load that the BN2 currently does however Cessna's figures require extrapolation to determine the case. Even Cessna's UK agent was unable to supply manufacturer data for the case.

There's still the anti-SE turbine mindset endemic in the CAA & many operator's management that would have to be changed. The UK authorities also seem to have an irrational fear of GPS & GPS approaches even though many (most?) of the airstrips don't have navaids.

TINSTAAFI.....

The Caravan (208) is often thought of mistakenly as some sort of short field bush style aircraft....it's not...it's primarily designed for Fed-Ex type ops into 2nd and 3rd level airports and is not considered a short field performer....in fact at gross it's not that much better than a B200....though it does have advantages on rough strips....

As for the CAA having an "Anti SE turbine mind-set"...it may be with good reason....as I've posted before on the subject...undoubtedly turbines are incredibly reliable in comparison with piston a/c.... however, I don't think that at present there are any SE turbine aircraft flying that are 30 years old....In 7000 hrs of turbo-prop ops on turbine twins I've had 4 fire warnings (3 spurious,1 genuine)...lost all oil out of an engine during an ILS approach to minimums with a full load of pax and had to shut an engine down that was going out of control due to a computer malfunction....Over 7000 hrs it doesn't sound like much but in a single it only has to happen once. The turbines are hugely reliable...the ancilliary equipment that these engines depend on is not always as good...As these aircraft get older...especially in Europe with the excruciatingly high operating costs, the operaters will be those at the lower end of the spectrum who by circumstances will be forced to keep maintenance to the bare legal minimum...those who've flown for these outfits will recognise what that means.....

Don't be in too much of a hurry to see IFR SE turbine commercial ops legalised in Europe...

Now now i wasn't having a go at the heli-med boys. Who I am always watching for when the come in for a hot refuel. They can make the machine dance. And the landing site chart in the office with the bit of string with a wieght on the end for measuring distance does truly show some very impressive landing areas.

As for the islander hovering in, it was in kirkwall on a nice summers day with the 2 main runways out of xwind limits and the islander sort of came in on 15 but sort of to the right, popped it down just at the edge of the intersection and just stopped in about 10 ft.


The plus points is that its a dedicated machine with proper kit on board which is designed for the role

Having flown with just about all of Loganair's ambulance pilots at some point over the last four years, I would not cast any doubt as to their ability in the Islander, or any of the other aeroplanes, we've operated together. And I wouldn't cast any doubt as to Loganair's commitment to providing a really excellent service to the remote communities and the Ambulance Service. It is just a sad fact of aviation that accidents happen and lives were lost. I am really gutted that Guy was one of those lives: he was a 'splendid chap', and a bloomin good mate.

I am glad that the Ambulance Service realised that the requirment for a 21st century service had to be upgraded. I do think that whilst the Islander operation was an excellent operation, in this day and age there are better alternatives.

For as long as the CAA drag their heels about certifying GPS for non-precision and precision approaches, crews will make up their own procedures, which may be inherently as dangerous as those they try to improve upon. For as long as no one gets 'caught', or caught out, it won't matter, the job will get done. But when someone does come unstuck, there will be a big backlash. There is scope for many other threads on the subject: I expect it has been much debated already!

There are a couple of people who have posted here who's opinions and experience of the operation is first hand, and we would all do well to take note of what they say, and respect their experience of the subject.

poorwanderingwun,

The data Cessna supplied to me for the C208 go down to 400 or 450m (can't remember, it was a couple of years ago) - and that was with at least equivalent loads to the BN2. Using the same loads as were currently used into the 381m strip with a BN2, extrapolation showed the C208 was at least a feasable option worth pursuing with the manufacturer. If it wasn't for the entrenched anti-SE Turbine lobby.

At the time there were also funds set aside for the extension of the limiting runway by 50 m or so which would further reduce the performance data issue.

As for SET vs. light twins, the available data supports the safety of the SET class as at least equivalent to light twins. I've even seen data - but now can't remember where. I think it was from Oz's CASA - that showed a lesser risk due engine failure in a SET than in a light twin.

To argue that eventually a SET will have a failure & crash is a straw man argument. By the same logic and based on in service demonstrated safety rates, a light twin will also have a failure....and turn turtle & spear in.

I realise that extrapolation can't be used operationally. I used it to determine if further investigation was warranted.

ACA
 

Thanks, I must have been having a 'senior' moment.
Andy.

From todays Glasgow Herald:

'A body recovered from the sea 12 miles off the Mull of Kintyre last Sunday has been identified as Guy Henderson, 40,of Broxburn,West Lothian, the pilot of an air ambulance which crashed off Campbeltown in March.'

I'm sure everyones thoughts are with his family on what must be a terrible time of the year for them.