744 Eng Fail and Vmcg
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Heels should be on the floor for take off and on landing until initiating manual braking
If (and it’s a really big if!) that means you go off the side of the runway on a low speed abort at 30 or 40 knots, that’s totally survivable. On the other hand, inadvertent (differential?) braking at higher speed is a very different scenario. Where do the greater adverse consequences lie?
Does any manufacturer recommend ‘feet up’ for take off? I’ve flown five different jet liners from three major manufacturers and I can’t recall it? Or is this just a ‘bright idea’?
Only half a speed-brake
Airbus has a clear opinion of it. Proper modern pedals can be designed for a safe feet up takeoffs.
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Does any manufacturer recommend ‘feet up’ for take off? I’ve flown five different jet liners from three major manufacturers and I can’t recall it? Or is this just a ‘bright idea’?
I have also flown five airliners and three of them wide bodies including 747 but that doesn't mean anything. Everyone has his comfort blanket. FAA document Pilot Guide to Take off Safety in para 3.2.6.5 says the following:
"The pilot’s foot position relative to the rudder pedal can also have an effect on the achievement off full brake pressure. It was noted during a study conducted by the Training Aid Working Group that foot position during the takeoff roll tends to be an individual preference. Some pilots prefer to have their feet "up on the pedals” to be ready to apply full brakes if required. Pilots who prefer this technique also noted that their toes are“curled back” to avoid unwanted brake applications when applying rudder. The other technique is to rest the heels on the floor during the takeoff roll, and then raise them to be on the pedal to apply full braking. No problems were noted with either technique."
on a slippery runway in 747 classic where nose wheel is not connected to the rudder if outer engine fails you cannot stop excursion unless rudder and differential braking is simultaneously applied. If you can do it with feet on ground then good for you.
as far as landing is concerned if you are an Airbus pilot then listen to Airbus Win APPROACH AND LANDING PROCEDURES AND TRAINING RECOMMENDATIONS. At about 7:47 he categorically stated "steer with heels and brake with toe."
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How many 747 classics are still in operation worldwide? A non steerable nose wheel sounds about as relevant to this discussion as a non steerable tailwheel?
inadvertant (and unwanted) brake operation is not possible with heels on the floor. That’s where the greater consequences lie as the aircraft accelerates and/or up to full rudder may be required. (AFTER landing is of course a totally different situation!)
However we are all trained to apply our own braking during a rejected take-off at speeds below activation of RTO auto brake function. It’s not difficult to slide your feet up at low speed.
Thank you for confirming no manufacturer or regulator recommends your personally favoured technique for take off.
I believe there is a difference here between Boeing and Airbus? I have flown both products, though more B than A.
inadvertant (and unwanted) brake operation is not possible with heels on the floor. That’s where the greater consequences lie as the aircraft accelerates and/or up to full rudder may be required. (AFTER landing is of course a totally different situation!)
However we are all trained to apply our own braking during a rejected take-off at speeds below activation of RTO auto brake function. It’s not difficult to slide your feet up at low speed.
Thank you for confirming no manufacturer or regulator recommends your personally favoured technique for take off.
I believe there is a difference here between Boeing and Airbus? I have flown both products, though more B than A.
Last edited by 4468; 7th Jan 2021 at 10:08.
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Thank you for confirming no manufacturer or regulator recommends your personally favoured technique for take off.
Last edited by vilas; 7th Jan 2021 at 13:23.
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I’m surprised to have to admit, I can’t find anywhere that ‘recommends’ heels on the floor! 😳
I’m also scratching my head to recall what I did during my 6 years on A319/320/321? The more I think about it, maybe I did fly those take offs with feet up???
But I’m absolutely certain I never did that in the many years spent on any of the three Boeing types I’ve flown! Nor on the other jetliner I flew. Maybe the difference is purely down to pedal design? Though even Airbus themselves express no specific recommendation.
However in general, my personal preference would be heels down, as I believe the greater consequence is inadvertent (differential?) braking at high speed, or inadvertent disabling of RTO autobrake extending the reject distance. (Both of which I have seen.) Presumably purely to combat a possible low speed runway excursion. All of the above being hypothetical of course.
I see this is a discussion you have been involved in previously.
As I said. My opinion only. Clearly not yours.
I’m also scratching my head to recall what I did during my 6 years on A319/320/321? The more I think about it, maybe I did fly those take offs with feet up???
But I’m absolutely certain I never did that in the many years spent on any of the three Boeing types I’ve flown! Nor on the other jetliner I flew. Maybe the difference is purely down to pedal design? Though even Airbus themselves express no specific recommendation.
However in general, my personal preference would be heels down, as I believe the greater consequence is inadvertent (differential?) braking at high speed, or inadvertent disabling of RTO autobrake extending the reject distance. (Both of which I have seen.) Presumably purely to combat a possible low speed runway excursion. All of the above being hypothetical of course.
I see this is a discussion you have been involved in previously.
As I said. My opinion only. Clearly not yours.
Last edited by 4468; 7th Jan 2021 at 15:49.
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I’m surprised to have to admit, I can’t find anywhere that ‘recommends’ heels on the floor! 😳
I’m also scratching my head to recall what I did during my 6 years on A319/320/321? The more I think about it, maybe I did fly those take offs with feet up???
But I’m absolutely certain I never did that in the many years spent on any of the three Boeing types I’ve flown! Nor on the other jetliner I flew. Maybe the difference is purely down to pedal design? Though even Airbus themselves express no specific recommendation.
However in general, my personal preference would be heels down, as I believe the greater consequence is inadvertent (differential?) braking at high speed, or inadvertent disabling of RTO autobrake extending the reject distance. (Both of which I have seen.) Purely to combat a low speed runway excursion. All of the above being hypothetical of course.
I see this is a discussion you have been involved in previously.
I’m also scratching my head to recall what I did during my 6 years on A319/320/321? The more I think about it, maybe I did fly those take offs with feet up???
But I’m absolutely certain I never did that in the many years spent on any of the three Boeing types I’ve flown! Nor on the other jetliner I flew. Maybe the difference is purely down to pedal design? Though even Airbus themselves express no specific recommendation.
However in general, my personal preference would be heels down, as I believe the greater consequence is inadvertent (differential?) braking at high speed, or inadvertent disabling of RTO autobrake extending the reject distance. (Both of which I have seen.) Purely to combat a low speed runway excursion. All of the above being hypothetical of course.
I see this is a discussion you have been involved in previously.
Only half a speed-brake
This
is very aptly responded with
Both copied from upthread. Topic closed, 3 weeks sooner compared to that other last time?
I’m surprised to have to admit, I can’t find anywhere that ‘recommends’ heels on the floor!
Thank you for confirming no manufacturer or regulator recommends your personally favoured technique for take off.
Boeing Chief Pilot of special projects Jerry Whites and Vmcg tests on the 747 Dreamlifter at 27:27. Interesting life test pilots, first time he stalled a 777 ended up inverted.
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I’m surprised to have to admit, I can’t find anywhere that ‘recommends’ heels on the floor! 😳
I’m also scratching my head to recall what I did during my 6 years on A319/320/321? The more I think about it, maybe I did fly those take offs with feet up???
But I’m absolutely certain I never did that in the many years spent on any of the three Boeing types I’ve flown! Nor on the other jetliner I flew. Maybe the difference is purely down to pedal design? Though even Airbus themselves express no specific recommendation.
However in general, my personal preference would be heels down, as I believe the greater consequence is inadvertent (differential?) braking at high speed, or inadvertent disabling of RTO autobrake extending the reject distance. (Both of which I have seen.) Presumably purely to combat a possible low speed runway excursion. All of the above being hypothetical of course.
I see this is a discussion you have been involved in previously.
As I said. My opinion only. Clearly not yours.
I’m also scratching my head to recall what I did during my 6 years on A319/320/321? The more I think about it, maybe I did fly those take offs with feet up???
But I’m absolutely certain I never did that in the many years spent on any of the three Boeing types I’ve flown! Nor on the other jetliner I flew. Maybe the difference is purely down to pedal design? Though even Airbus themselves express no specific recommendation.
However in general, my personal preference would be heels down, as I believe the greater consequence is inadvertent (differential?) braking at high speed, or inadvertent disabling of RTO autobrake extending the reject distance. (Both of which I have seen.) Presumably purely to combat a possible low speed runway excursion. All of the above being hypothetical of course.
I see this is a discussion you have been involved in previously.
As I said. My opinion only. Clearly not yours.