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Flight Planning Filing PBN question

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Flight Planning Filing PBN question

Old 19th Jun 2020, 10:34
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Flight Planning Filing PBN question

Hi All,

Not sure if this counts as a tech question or if it belongs in the ATC Issues forum but here goes:

So scenario is youíre doing a flight from X to Y and the Destination isnít in the Navigation Database . When youíre filing the ATC flight plan how would you highlight this lack of Aircraft equipment if you had to file the ATC Flight Plan?

In ITEM 10 (EQUIPMENT) on an ICAO Flight Plan Form for a Ďnormalí flight my operator files the following: SDE1E2E3FGHIJ1J4J5M1RWXYZ/SB1D1 and in ITEM 18 (OTHER INFORMATION): PBN/A1B1C1D1L1O1S1

I assume (possibly incorrectly) for this scenario that you would remove the S1 (RNP APCH) and add a Remark RMK/ in plain text?
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 12:09
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Good question.

We usually don't have that kind of information readily available in ATC....

The easiest thing would be to ask for an approach you're actually able to fly, which, if I understand you correctly, excludes RNP approaches....

But it's part of your planning to make sure you're ready for that flight, so just have the charts ready for the non-RNP approaches, and advice..... we will make it happen.

I would think that whether or not the destination is in the Data Base, is irrelevant when using the S1, the S1 indicates that the aircraft is capable of RNP approaches (LNAV only), not actually programmed for your destination....

Not being a technician, but can't you program it enroute using the "Recommended Coding Table"? Or does that require a bit more than that??
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 10:08
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You can't fly an approach in IMC that hasn't come from the database. Too much chance of error.

To the OP, it's an interesting question. S1 refers to the aircraft capability, and the fact is that it is capable of S1 if it is going to an appropriate aerodrome. This scenario is more like going to an airport with a NOTAM'd ILS, you wouldn't take your ILS capability out of the plan just because the airport doesn't support it. If it was me, I'd leave the plan as normal but make sure ATC know you can't accept the RNP approach.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 11:22
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Thanks for the responses so far. Oh I’ve done the procedure before and had no issues informing ATC on arrival that we were unable to fly the published procedures due to aircraft equipment. However I was told by one of the other crew in my airline that at some destinations (I believe in the USA) ATC aren’t particularly impressed if you plan to fly there without being able to follow the published arrivals and haven’t at least notified them in advanced, that’s what got me thinking of how you could achieve this with the ATC flight plan (maybe it’s just Chinese whispers).
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 13:20
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How is the PBN related?
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 13:30
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Never mind, everyone understands what they are talking about
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 16:03
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Right, because there are no issues with hand flying or manually entering an RNP procedure because one does not have it in their database........
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 19:10
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Originally Posted by Richard_Richard View Post
Thanks for the responses so far. Oh Iíve done the procedure before and had no issues informing ATC on arrival that we were unable to fly the published procedures due to aircraft equipment. However I was told by one of the other crew in my airline that at some destinations (I believe in the USA) ATC arenít particularly impressed if you plan to fly there without being able to follow the published arrivals and havenít at least notified them in advanced, thatís what got me thinking of how you could achieve this with the ATC flight plan (maybe itís just Chinese whispers).
From my experience, US controllers donít mind. Just file the appropriate STAR (usually conventional navigation). Theyíll try to assign you the RNAV, and then you tell them unable. Never been a problem.
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 11:45
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Originally Posted by turbidus View Post
Right, because there are no issues with hand flying or manually entering an RNP procedure because one does not have it in their database........
I think there are some restrictions on the LPV and LNAV/VNAV? The LPV I believe needs to be in the database, and can be flown using autopilot or flight director.... LNAV/VNAV not really sure...

LNAV only, can be flown using a GNSS setup and does not require a database.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what Iīve been able to dig up so far (and I don't fly any aircraft that advanced anyway)
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 15:59
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No, you require a database for all PBN approaches.
From EASA Part-OPS
For RNAV 1, RNAV 2, RNP 1, RNP 2, and RNP APCH, the flight crew should neither insert nor modify waypoints by manual entry into a procedure (departure, arrival or approach) that has been retrieved from the database. User-defined data may be entered and used for waypoint altitude/speed constraints on a procedure where said constraints are not included in the navigation database coding.
The wording is identical in PART-CAT, NCC, and NCO so appliaes to all aircraft.
FAA AIM has the wording:
All approach procedures to be flown must be retrievable from the current airborne navigation database supplied by the equipment manufacturer or other FAA-approved source. The system must be able to retrieve the procedure by name from the aircraft navigation database, not just as a manually entered series of waypoints. Manual entry of waypoints using latitude/longitude or place/bearing is not permitted for approach procedures.
So pretty unequivocal on both sides of the Atlantic.
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 21:27
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I stand corrected
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