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Boeing 787s must be turned off and on every 51 days

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Boeing 787s must be turned off and on every 51 days

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Old 5th Apr 2020, 00:36
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Originally Posted by jetfour
in the real world, CTRL-ALT-DEL would sort it. Or maybe, a hard restart!
Have you tried turning it off and on again. Oh, wait....
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Old 5th Apr 2020, 03:30
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I would have thought a good time to perform a power cycle would be when the nav data bases are updated, usually every twenty-eight days.
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Old 5th Apr 2020, 06:23
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Originally Posted by fergusd
It really isn't . . .
Fine. In that case, feel free to tell us how the 51 days is really derived.

Use more than three words, if you need to.
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Old 5th Apr 2020, 19:27
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Fine. In that case, feel free to tell us how the 51 days is really derived.

Use more than three words, if you need to.
Because maybe it has nothing do with a fixed period of time? Maybe there is a cache or a temporary log etc. that gets updated regularly and a some new data is attached. After 51 days the storage that is used for this activity is full and the system crashes. Just one example.
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Old 5th Apr 2020, 21:03
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Fine. In that case, feel free to tell us how the 51 days is really derived.

Use more than three words, if you need to.
35 years of experience in real time control systems software in safety critical industries says you're talking sh1te.

That's more than 3 words . . .

Back you your area of speciality, if you have one . . .
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Old 5th Apr 2020, 21:29
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Pass the popcorn!
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Old 5th Apr 2020, 22:02
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Originally Posted by jimjim1
It was pointed out in Another Place that 51 days is quite close to 2^32 milliseconds.

50d 17h 02m 47s
For those of us not so inclined, what's the significance of 2^32?
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Old 5th Apr 2020, 22:08
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Originally Posted by RickNRoll
Have you tried turning it off and on again. Oh, wait....
Good to see it isn't just us. Our modern locomotives have dozens of computers running everything from the diesel engine & traction power systems to crew displays, signalling and ATP. I've lost count of the number of BOBO (Battery off, wait a bit, battery on) reboots I've had to do to try to get them talking to each other again!
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Old 5th Apr 2020, 22:16
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Originally Posted by fergusd
35 years of experience in real time control systems software in safety critical industries says you're talking sh1te.

That's more than 3 words . . .

Back you your area of speciality, if you have one . . .
You could have just left it at "I can't explain", then three words would indeed have sufficed.
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Old 5th Apr 2020, 22:32
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Originally Posted by Check Airman
For those of us not so inclined, what's the significance of 2^32?
Counters, and microprocessor registers in general, typically have a capacity that corresponds to some multiple of 8 bits.

For example a 16-bit counter isn't capable of counting beyond 65,535 (one less than 2^16). Using one for an application that requires counting to values higher than that will produce unpredictable results.

In the case of the 787 issue, whatever the maximum value that the counter can accommodate is (2^32 is being suggested, equivalent to 4,294,967,295 clock ticks), that value is reached after approximately 51 days.
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Old 6th Apr 2020, 06:57
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A common tick counter period in real-time systems is 1.024 ms (don't ask me why!). That works out at 50.9 days
Originally Posted by pilotmike
It is because 16MHz / 2^14 gives a period of 1.024ms, ie. 976.5625Hz
This is just one example..There is no common implementation.. although OS system ticks in the order of 1 to 10 ms. is common. (For big OS'es)
Real-time systems interfacing directly with hardware are often have much faster system tick and OS preemptive interrupts.
And almost all CPU's today have a clock faster than 16MHz. (i.e. prescaler values need to be larger than 2^14 to divide to 1ms. )
For PC hardware google High Precision Event Timer and cpu Time_Stamp_Counter

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Old 6th Apr 2020, 10:19
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
A common tick counter period in real-time systems is 1.024 ms (don't ask me why!). That works out at 50.9 days.
Thanks Dave.
I forgot that most modern CPUs are clocked to give a reliable 1 microsecond interval.
That means that an interrupt coded to click every millisecond is actually triggered every 2^10 microseconds or 1.024 millisecond.
That is the reason.
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Old 6th Apr 2020, 10:20
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The Genesis Manoeuvre.... Turn it off, turn it on again
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Old 6th Apr 2020, 11:27
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Originally Posted by Jumbo Jockey
The Genesis Manoeuvre.... Turn it off, turn it on again
Not applicable as that would mean doing the reset 13 times in 8 days, which is not the case.
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Old 7th Apr 2020, 05:49
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Counters, and microprocessor registers in general, typically have a capacity that corresponds to some multiple of 8 bits.

For example a 16-bit counter isn't capable of counting beyond 65,535 (one less than 2^16). Using one for an application that requires counting to values higher than that will produce unpredictable results.

In the case of the 787 issue, whatever the maximum value that the counter can accommodate is (2^32 is being suggested, equivalent to 4,294,967,295 clock ticks), that value is reached after approximately 51 days.
Appreciate the explanation. Am I to assume that there's some sort of clock somewhere on the plane that was only designed to count up to 2^32, and so will need to be reset before it gets to that value, so it doesn't run out of fingers to count on?
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Old 7th Apr 2020, 07:18
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Originally Posted by Check Airman
Appreciate the explanation. Am I to assume that there's some sort of clock somewhere on the plane that was only designed to count up to 2^32, and so will need to be reset before it gets to that value, so it doesn't run out of fingers to count on?
Exactly.

Of course the reset happens automatically every time the aircraft is powered down. It sounds like it never occurred to Boeing or the FAA that you could have a scenario where an aircraft was continuously powered-up for 51 days or more, and I'm struggling too to imagine that actually happening.
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