Is VLS kind of speed can't be violated in A320 family ?
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Is VLS kind of speed can't be violated in A320 family ?
Hello all,
Here is the scenario in my check:
I get a ENG failed and shut down then shoot the approach. When close to to runway (below DA), I initiate go around due to some reason, Vapp=140kts, VLS=136kts,
after TOGA thrust and flaps one step up, the VLS=138kts, managed speed target= 140kts (same as Vapp), but my current speed drop to 132kts due to pitch up . Then he fails me because my speed below VLS.
My question is: Except stable approach criteria (company by company), is the VLS kind of speed cannot be violated ?
I don't find any description in FCOM about go around low speed limit, either in other phase like climb phase(I mean after acceleration altitude.), descent phase.
Yes above VLS is always safe side I know, and it is a threshold to activate Airbus's protections,
but, Airbus never say the VLS is a speed pilot's can't violate, doesn't it ?
Does anybody have documents about that ?
Here is the scenario in my check:
I get a ENG failed and shut down then shoot the approach. When close to to runway (below DA), I initiate go around due to some reason, Vapp=140kts, VLS=136kts,
after TOGA thrust and flaps one step up, the VLS=138kts, managed speed target= 140kts (same as Vapp), but my current speed drop to 132kts due to pitch up . Then he fails me because my speed below VLS.
My question is: Except stable approach criteria (company by company), is the VLS kind of speed cannot be violated ?
I don't find any description in FCOM about go around low speed limit, either in other phase like climb phase(I mean after acceleration altitude.), descent phase.
Yes above VLS is always safe side I know, and it is a threshold to activate Airbus's protections,
but, Airbus never say the VLS is a speed pilot's can't violate, doesn't it ?
Does anybody have documents about that ?
I think the answer will not be with Airbus documents but with your operators checking manual or state legislation. They should describe handling tolerances for the check ride. Sustained flight below VLS when OEI would seem a reasonable reason to fail the assessment.Obviously difficult to say without the knowledge of the overall check performance.
Vls is the lowest speed you can select, but that does not prevent you flying slower manually.
However, there is no reason to fly below Vls, and your airline SOPs probably state somewhere that speeds below Vls are not allowed.
I found this from a previous airline’s documentation, (edited):
Handling errors
- Speed close to plus 20
- Flight below VLS/Low energy
In your case, you state that the speed bug was at 140kts, but you got down to 132 kts. That is below the +10/-5 kts speed range that is normally allowed, so I suspect your fail was due to going below Vls and 5kts too slow.
Go-around pitch can be difficult to set in the heat of the moment; make sure you keep scanning and nail the pitch at +15° (or +12.5° on one engine).
However, there is no reason to fly below Vls, and your airline SOPs probably state somewhere that speeds below Vls are not allowed.
I found this from a previous airline’s documentation, (edited):
Handling errors
- Speed close to plus 20
- Flight below VLS/Low energy
In your case, you state that the speed bug was at 140kts, but you got down to 132 kts. That is below the +10/-5 kts speed range that is normally allowed, so I suspect your fail was due to going below Vls and 5kts too slow.
Go-around pitch can be difficult to set in the heat of the moment; make sure you keep scanning and nail the pitch at +15° (or +12.5° on one engine).
Last edited by Uplinker; 17th Dec 2019 at 09:05.
Only half a speed-brake
My understanding is that for OEI Vls strongly correlates with Vmca, the numbers can by distilled from the FCOM. Not observing the latter is a valid reason, I am afraid.
Moreover, the EASA rules clearly spell out the acceptable tolerances for a skill test. IIRC for V2 it is plus 10 and minus 0. Even under a different regulator, that is a strong guidance. +10/-5 kt for OEI, checked the books.
Moreover, the EASA rules clearly spell out the acceptable tolerances for a skill test.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 16th Dec 2019 at 10:37.
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Some my own opinions
My company has VLS limitation in stable approach criteria regulations, but not to mention in other flight phase like go-around.
I don't think it apply to go-around phase just because if my speed below VLS between DA and runway, like 50ft AAL, due to turbulence to typhoon, then I have to initial go around.
If I have the VLS limitation, does it mean I have to accelerate to VLS initially, with only one engine, then I can pitch up?
I thought about V2, too, but the logic of V2 is different from "manage speed target" in go-around phase, in Airbus A320 family, so it may not be the way the answer.
About the + or - 5kts, 10 degrees heading, 100ft altitude tolerance rule, I'm not sure it apply to approach or go around phase, the reason are as below:
1. Pilot never can fly 100ft below DA/MDA if no runway visual references.
2. Pilot can't fly a speed below VLS in final approach even it is within 5kts of Vapp.
3. 10 degrees heading... of course !
.... I guess this is why my check airman not to write down my "speed more than 5kts below manage speed target", but "Below VLS". He is serious in this reason.
We can presume the + or - 5kts tolerance rule apply to all circumstances, including my case, go-around phase, but that will be strange when over weight landing. Everyone knows we need to select VLS through FCU in final approach, that will about 5kts or more (depends how many system failures) below Vapp inserted. If you select flaps 3 for landing, after you initiate go around with TOGA thrust, you will not only be immediately far from VLS, but definitely more than 5kts below manage speed target(Vapp or VLS).
FCTM OVERWEIGHT LANDING CHAPTER:
"For a go-around, if the landing configuration is different from FLAP FULL, FLAP 1 must be used. If a go-around FLAP 1 is performed, VLS CONF 1+F may be higher than VLS CONF 3 +5kts. The recommendation in such a case is to follow SRS orders that accelerates the aircraft up to the displayed VLS."
That's why I ask the question:
Is VLS kind of speed can't be violated?
Or there are some exceptions? What are they?
I have a theory about go-around: Make a positive climb is the most important concern as long as speed not drop to V alpha prot. in Airbus or Vs0 in Boeing.
I don't find anything to support it, but find there's no description about low speed limitation when go around in airbus manuals.
(Only description of "manage speed target", which has a low limit Vapp, and a high limit VLS+15kts in One ENG OUT.)
Simply speaking: The "speed target", means the pilot needs to fly toward it, then maintains, not to mention pilot can't be too far initially. Like approach, we extend FLAP 1 at green dot + 10kts, then we inevitably far far from S speed initially. So as my case, how can I been blamed to be far from manage speed target initially?
Thanks for you all finish so many words.
I don't think it apply to go-around phase just because if my speed below VLS between DA and runway, like 50ft AAL, due to turbulence to typhoon, then I have to initial go around.
If I have the VLS limitation, does it mean I have to accelerate to VLS initially, with only one engine, then I can pitch up?
I thought about V2, too, but the logic of V2 is different from "manage speed target" in go-around phase, in Airbus A320 family, so it may not be the way the answer.
About the + or - 5kts, 10 degrees heading, 100ft altitude tolerance rule, I'm not sure it apply to approach or go around phase, the reason are as below:
1. Pilot never can fly 100ft below DA/MDA if no runway visual references.
2. Pilot can't fly a speed below VLS in final approach even it is within 5kts of Vapp.
3. 10 degrees heading... of course !
.... I guess this is why my check airman not to write down my "speed more than 5kts below manage speed target", but "Below VLS". He is serious in this reason.
We can presume the + or - 5kts tolerance rule apply to all circumstances, including my case, go-around phase, but that will be strange when over weight landing. Everyone knows we need to select VLS through FCU in final approach, that will about 5kts or more (depends how many system failures) below Vapp inserted. If you select flaps 3 for landing, after you initiate go around with TOGA thrust, you will not only be immediately far from VLS, but definitely more than 5kts below manage speed target(Vapp or VLS).
FCTM OVERWEIGHT LANDING CHAPTER:
"For a go-around, if the landing configuration is different from FLAP FULL, FLAP 1 must be used. If a go-around FLAP 1 is performed, VLS CONF 1+F may be higher than VLS CONF 3 +5kts. The recommendation in such a case is to follow SRS orders that accelerates the aircraft up to the displayed VLS."
That's why I ask the question:
Is VLS kind of speed can't be violated?
Or there are some exceptions? What are they?
I have a theory about go-around: Make a positive climb is the most important concern as long as speed not drop to V alpha prot. in Airbus or Vs0 in Boeing.
I don't find anything to support it, but find there's no description about low speed limitation when go around in airbus manuals.
(Only description of "manage speed target", which has a low limit Vapp, and a high limit VLS+15kts in One ENG OUT.)
Simply speaking: The "speed target", means the pilot needs to fly toward it, then maintains, not to mention pilot can't be too far initially. Like approach, we extend FLAP 1 at green dot + 10kts, then we inevitably far far from S speed initially. So as my case, how can I been blamed to be far from manage speed target initially?
Thanks for you all finish so many words.
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Hello all,
Here is the scenario in my check:
I get a ENG failed and shut down then shoot the approach. When close to to runway (below DA), I initiate go around due to some reason, Vapp=140kts, VLS=136kts,
after TOGA thrust and flaps one step up, the VLS=138kts, managed speed target= 140kts (same as Vapp), but my current speed drop to 132kts due to pitch up . Then he fails me because my speed below VLS.
My question is: Except stable approach criteria (company by company), is the VLS kind of speed cannot be violated ?
I don't find any description in FCOM about go around low speed limit, either in other phase like climb phase(I mean after acceleration altitude.), descent phase.
Yes above VLS is always safe side I know, and it is a threshold to activate Airbus's protections,
but, Airbus never say the VLS is a speed pilot's can't violate, doesn't it ?
Does anybody have documents about that ?
Here is the scenario in my check:
I get a ENG failed and shut down then shoot the approach. When close to to runway (below DA), I initiate go around due to some reason, Vapp=140kts, VLS=136kts,
after TOGA thrust and flaps one step up, the VLS=138kts, managed speed target= 140kts (same as Vapp), but my current speed drop to 132kts due to pitch up . Then he fails me because my speed below VLS.
My question is: Except stable approach criteria (company by company), is the VLS kind of speed cannot be violated ?
I don't find any description in FCOM about go around low speed limit, either in other phase like climb phase(I mean after acceleration altitude.), descent phase.
Yes above VLS is always safe side I know, and it is a threshold to activate Airbus's protections,
but, Airbus never say the VLS is a speed pilot's can't violate, doesn't it ?
Does anybody have documents about that ?
In landing configurations (CONF 3 and FULL) VLS is always equal to, or greater than, VMCL. (FCOM)
Hence flying below VLS could bring You below VMCL, ie. being unable to control the aircraft with asymmetric thrust.
It is a typical occurrence during LCP/OPCs as everybody tries to aim directly for the 12,5 degrees with a fast rotation rate and at medium/high weight it results in the speed dropping below vls. Rotate smoothly towards a 10 degrees pitch attitude and let your speed stabilize, then continue slightly up to 12.5 and from there follow the SRS.
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There is Vapp and Vls, sometimes Vapp can be Vls. Permitted +10/-5 is to Vapp. Flying +15 can be called sloppy flying but below Vls is unsafe flying. Depending on some factors flying below Vls can trigger alpha protection, alpha floor etc. so unlikely to be forgiven. Except takeoff flying the FD will ensure everything if not available then fly the pitch.
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For how long was your speed below Vls? Was there turbulence? If it was only momentary, and you immediately corrected, he may have been a bit harsh.
Vmc aside, the plane can safely be flown below Vls, but I’d say there needs to be a specific reason for it.
Vmc aside, the plane can safely be flown below Vls, but I’d say there needs to be a specific reason for it.
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I could obviously not second guess either your experience or the check airman’s judgment, having not been there but....
Generally Vls in the scenario you describe is treated as a sort of “caution range” before you start hitting protections. In other words, if you wind up there it will prompt you to very quickly get yourself out of whatever situation made you so slow in the first place. Basically being below Vls is a symptom of something else, whether turbulence / shear, or mishandling of some kind. The questions I would have would be:
How did you get below Vls? Rapid over-pitching? Mishandling thrust or rudder? Gusts?
How long were you there, how prompt were your corrections, and did you correct whatever originally caused the excursion?
The difference between an acceptable and unacceptable grade often has to do with how quickly you recognized the deviation, if you recognized what actually caused it in the first place, and importantly how timely and appropriate your correction was relative to the underlying cause (for example the pitch excursion that caused the speed to drop in the first place). It often also has to do with the “big picture” of the overall session, or the other aspects of the maneuver. Where there other issues that were close to the edges of the standard? Or was absolutely everything else perfect except for that one thing? Big picture context matters.
Somewhere your company has a standards document, which is likely based on and expanded from the ATPL test standards of your country. The company document should also contain specific guidelines for how to grade deviations from that standard. First thing I would do is ask to see this, and very, very honestly assess yourself based on what it says.
It is more important to see ourselves clearly than to be right all the time. Otherwise we lose the open mindedness to continue improving our own weak points, which we ALL have. I have been on both sides of your scenario, and let me tell you.... Ego has no place in this business. Yours will be bruised, just as much as mine has been! Your check airman has had his share, too.
Generally Vls in the scenario you describe is treated as a sort of “caution range” before you start hitting protections. In other words, if you wind up there it will prompt you to very quickly get yourself out of whatever situation made you so slow in the first place. Basically being below Vls is a symptom of something else, whether turbulence / shear, or mishandling of some kind. The questions I would have would be:
How did you get below Vls? Rapid over-pitching? Mishandling thrust or rudder? Gusts?
How long were you there, how prompt were your corrections, and did you correct whatever originally caused the excursion?
The difference between an acceptable and unacceptable grade often has to do with how quickly you recognized the deviation, if you recognized what actually caused it in the first place, and importantly how timely and appropriate your correction was relative to the underlying cause (for example the pitch excursion that caused the speed to drop in the first place). It often also has to do with the “big picture” of the overall session, or the other aspects of the maneuver. Where there other issues that were close to the edges of the standard? Or was absolutely everything else perfect except for that one thing? Big picture context matters.
Somewhere your company has a standards document, which is likely based on and expanded from the ATPL test standards of your country. The company document should also contain specific guidelines for how to grade deviations from that standard. First thing I would do is ask to see this, and very, very honestly assess yourself based on what it says.
It is more important to see ourselves clearly than to be right all the time. Otherwise we lose the open mindedness to continue improving our own weak points, which we ALL have. I have been on both sides of your scenario, and let me tell you.... Ego has no place in this business. Yours will be bruised, just as much as mine has been! Your check airman has had his share, too.
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There is Vapp and Vls, sometimes Vapp can be Vls. Permitted +10/-5 is to Vapp. Flying +15 can be called sloppy flying but below Vls is unsafe flying. Depending on some factors flying below Vls can trigger alpha protection, alpha floor etc. so unlikely to be forgiven. Except takeoff flying the FD will ensure everything if not available then fly the pitch.
The FD command to pull up rapidly and I follow it, so speed drop a lot from 140kts to 132kts. I found it and pitch down, then the sim been frozen, and I am declared to fail the check due to below VLS, means I break the speed limit.
After go around, the managed speed target is 140kts=Vapp when go around initiated.
I check the manual, the VLS in CONF FULL with my weight is 136kts, after go around with flap one step up, the VLS is 138kts, same as what I see when the sim been frozen.
According FCOM limitation speed, VMCL=122kts, VCMA in CONF 3 is 130kts/ CONF FULL is 131kts.
I fought with the Check Airman so I know there are not any "go around low speed limit" description in my company's documents, none at all,
What he told to me is: "VLS is a lowest speed in any circumstances".
My company's target speed tolerance is plus and minus 10kts, not 5kts,
and the reason to fail me is NOT "Unsafe", "Danger to the plane" or something like that.
It is I VIOLATE THE SPEED LIMITATION. <- My question !
Just to remind us. From an A320 FCOM, (might be out of date):
(my bold). i.e. VLS is a certain margin above the computed stall speed, so not a speed you want to be below.
Interestingly:
@sonicbum, Nice tip on pitching up for go-around
Wish I had thought of that myself.
VLS : Lowest Selectable Speed.
Represented by the top of an amber strip along the airspeed scale on the PFD.
Computed by the FAC, based on aerodynamic data, and corresponds to 1.13 VS during
takeoff, or following a touch and go.
Becomes 1.23 VS, after retraction of one step of flaps.
Becomes 1.28 VS, when in clean configuration.
Represented by the top of an amber strip along the airspeed scale on the PFD.
Computed by the FAC, based on aerodynamic data, and corresponds to 1.13 VS during
takeoff, or following a touch and go.
Becomes 1.23 VS, after retraction of one step of flaps.
Becomes 1.28 VS, when in clean configuration.
Interestingly:
Note:The AP/FD TCAS mode is speed protected, i.e. it ensures that the aircraft speed remains between VLS- 5 kt and Vmax.
@sonicbum, Nice tip on pitching up for go-around
Wish I had thought of that myself.
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Where ever speed is to be reduced in select mode (slat/flap jam) Airbus mentions not below Vls. So other than turbulence where speed can fluctuate about Vls what could be the specific reasons to fly below Vls? Also what is the definition of safely? Getting into alpha prot with manual thrust trips the AP aircraft will be latched to the speed leading to descent or climb as per AoA is that safe?
I only pointed that out because the OP asked if Vls was some inviolable speed.
Only half a speed-brake
I do not think it is. This dot better stay connected though: Below 50t Vls(c=F) is limited by Vmc(L), if I am reading the FCOM right.
The original answer can be answered in positive as well: Since normal Vapp is Vls+5 and limiting accuracy on a test is -5, the Vls marks the inviolable zone anyway.
The original answer can be answered in positive as well: Since normal Vapp is Vls+5 and limiting accuracy on a test is -5, the Vls marks the inviolable zone anyway.
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off-topic:
the appr corr of 5kt which the fmgs takes as a minimum assumes the use of A/THR. Nothing that stops you from flying Vapp=Vls when man thr. In case of failure when delta vref more than 15 or 20, there is no appr corr anyway. And Vapp will sit right on Vls. How about flying -5/+10kt then? Not a ‘violation’ in my book, sloppy flying yes....
on-topic:
as always: a test is subjective. No way to say whether you were passable or not without being there. A quick drop below Vls when timely recognized and corrected would not be a fail.......
the appr corr of 5kt which the fmgs takes as a minimum assumes the use of A/THR. Nothing that stops you from flying Vapp=Vls when man thr. In case of failure when delta vref more than 15 or 20, there is no appr corr anyway. And Vapp will sit right on Vls. How about flying -5/+10kt then? Not a ‘violation’ in my book, sloppy flying yes....
on-topic:
as always: a test is subjective. No way to say whether you were passable or not without being there. A quick drop below Vls when timely recognized and corrected would not be a fail.......
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From Airbus document
Vls is
• Lowest selectable speed
• Represents minimum regulatory speeds depending on flight phase (can be VMCA, VMCL or Vs1g limited)
• Provides appropriate margin versus buffet at high
altitude
• Provides appropriate bank angle maneuverability
(defined by regulation) in a stabilised turn.
_________________________________________________ __
My inputs
Obviously when Vls is target speed it will fluctuate between a little less and more. But it is not a speed for sustained flight. At Vls Regulation requires to have 40° bank manoeuvrability and Airbus has it. At Vls, 40° bank in stabilised turn triggers alpha floor.
When one may procedurally land up flying temporarily below Vls is during overweight approach in flap3 and Go around with flap1. At that instant the speed could be below Vls 1+F. But it still is above regulatory requirement.
Vls is
• Lowest selectable speed
• Represents minimum regulatory speeds depending on flight phase (can be VMCA, VMCL or Vs1g limited)
• Provides appropriate margin versus buffet at high
altitude
• Provides appropriate bank angle maneuverability
(defined by regulation) in a stabilised turn.
_________________________________________________ __
My inputs
Obviously when Vls is target speed it will fluctuate between a little less and more. But it is not a speed for sustained flight. At Vls Regulation requires to have 40° bank manoeuvrability and Airbus has it. At Vls, 40° bank in stabilised turn triggers alpha floor.
When one may procedurally land up flying temporarily below Vls is during overweight approach in flap3 and Go around with flap1. At that instant the speed could be below Vls 1+F. But it still is above regulatory requirement.
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Thanks for you all give me so many information and opinions,
so may I conclude as below ?
1. VLS is not a limitation nor a speed pilot always have to be at or above, but only a lowest selectable speed for autothrust.
2. Pilot can fly a speed below VLS momentarily with a good reason. It is a common sense, or check/test standard in most company, not words in FCOM or FCTM.
3. VLS is a speed with sufficient margin to stall or activate Airbus protection.
4. In a check/test, normally speed tolerance is +10kts/-5kts.
That's what and why I answered when he asked how do I feel :
I confess I'm not flying good, but I don't violate anything, and I'm still in a positive climb, which is the most important while in such low altitude with a plane get into the runway. I don't understand why I should wait until the power comes up just to maintain a speed at or above VLS, or the manage speed target. It is a high bypass ratio Engine.
so may I conclude as below ?
1. VLS is not a limitation nor a speed pilot always have to be at or above, but only a lowest selectable speed for autothrust.
2. Pilot can fly a speed below VLS momentarily with a good reason. It is a common sense, or check/test standard in most company, not words in FCOM or FCTM.
3. VLS is a speed with sufficient margin to stall or activate Airbus protection.
4. In a check/test, normally speed tolerance is +10kts/-5kts.
That's what and why I answered when he asked how do I feel :
I confess I'm not flying good, but I don't violate anything, and I'm still in a positive climb, which is the most important while in such low altitude with a plane get into the runway. I don't understand why I should wait until the power comes up just to maintain a speed at or above VLS, or the manage speed target. It is a high bypass ratio Engine.
Only half a speed-brake
And so you have been rightfully failed. Not because of insufficient piloting finesse, but rather for lack of understanding why speed control is relevant, and inability to accept own mistakes. The last one, together with ignorance of why Vmca just might be important on a OEI G/A may cause you trouble next time too, be aware.
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And so you have been rightfully failed. Not because of insufficient piloting finesse, but rather for lack of understanding why speed control is relevant, and inability to accept own mistakes. The last one, together with ignorance of why Vmca just might be important on a OEI G/A may cause you trouble next time too, be aware.
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I find some more words in my FCOM PERFORMANCE Chapter, as below:
REFERENCE SPEED (VREF)
VREF is equal to the VLS of CONF FULL. VREF is used to determine the Final Approach Speed (VAPP) when a system failure affects the landing performance.
GO-AROUND SPEED
In the case of a missed approach, the go-around climb gradient is calculated at the go-around speed.
The standard go-around speed is 1.23 VS1G of the go-around configuration. For approaches with a decision height at or above 200 ft, where approach climb performance is found restrictive, the go-around speed can be increase up to 1.3 VS1G of the go-around configuration.
REFERENCE SPEED (VREF)
VREF is equal to the VLS of CONF FULL. VREF is used to determine the Final Approach Speed (VAPP) when a system failure affects the landing performance.
GO-AROUND SPEED
In the case of a missed approach, the go-around climb gradient is calculated at the go-around speed.
The standard go-around speed is 1.23 VS1G of the go-around configuration. For approaches with a decision height at or above 200 ft, where approach climb performance is found restrictive, the go-around speed can be increase up to 1.3 VS1G of the go-around configuration.