When are you allowed to put your hand back on thrust levers after V1?
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There is sure some quaint thinking in aviation.
There is no need to remove your hand off the thrust levers at V1. It was originally an old airline taught "tradition" that you intended to "Go".
Traditions have their use-by date in flying aeroplanes. It is just as easy to rotate with one hand on the control column wheel as it is to use the computer joy stick on an Airbus type. IMHO, It is common sense and good airmanship to keep one hand on the thrust levers during the take off roll and initial climb even with autothrottle system engaged.
There is no need to remove your hand off the thrust levers at V1. It was originally an old airline taught "tradition" that you intended to "Go".
Traditions have their use-by date in flying aeroplanes. It is just as easy to rotate with one hand on the control column wheel as it is to use the computer joy stick on an Airbus type. IMHO, It is common sense and good airmanship to keep one hand on the thrust levers during the take off roll and initial climb even with autothrottle system engaged.
Have you ever worked as a sim trainer?
My anecdotal observations: So many trainees leave hands on the TLs and reject after V1. Like 90% will have their hands in the wrong place at some point during their first few takes offs on their first multi type. If they are still messing that up (or slide back to it in later sessions) during a v1 cut they are 50% likely to reject above v1.
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Taking your hand of at V1 ensures that you don't reject. It's a mental message. This manoeuvre requires predetermined action since there is no time to think. Keeping your hand there you are tempting yourself. On another day you may live to regret.
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It's too simple ...Hands off the thrust leavers at V1,. Passing thrust reduction altitude hand back on the thrust lever and pull it back to CLB gate if it's an Airbus .....And if you need additional thrust for what ever reason in between hand OFF and ON..Just select TOGA...It doesn't take ages to get your hands back on the Thrust levers.( It does take some time for people to recognize that they need TOGA ..But once you know it does not take long)..I have seen people in the sim retarding thrust just after takeoff when they have hands ON
I flew for an airline which had a thing about doing it THEIR way which was not necessarily that of the manufacturer. It was for 'commonality' across fleets.
I thought that we had a course to convert from one type to another
They are a respected and safe operator but just had to do it their way.
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Whenever You need to, if You need to. Guarding the thrust levers in any phase of flight other than approach will most likely do more harm than good as there is nothing You need to do with these thrust levers except if you experience wind shear. All the other possible scenarios of thrust levers handling are pretty much covered by non normal procedures.
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Whenever You need to, if You need to. Guarding the thrust levers in any phase of flight other than approach will most likely do more harm than good as there is nothing You need to do with these thrust levers except if you experience wind shear. All the other possible scenarios of thrust levers handling are pretty much covered by non normal procedures.
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I doubt the romanian A310 crew had much time to contemplate non-normal checklists when they flipped over due to a throttle jam. Enlighten me as to what harm my hands do on the thrust levers after gear is selected up.
The next sequence was a 15 DME arc leading to an ILS. As the 737 was descending during the arc with 18 track miles to touch down, it was clean at 210 knots at idle thrust. Both pilots had their hands on knees. With the thrust levers at idle power, at this point the instructor failed the No 1 thrust lever clutch motor. There is no warning light of this in the 737 and the pilots would not have been aware of anything unusual until an increase of power was needed
Turning final, the PF called for the usual sequence of flap extension to slow up including gear down and final flap. The autothrottle system then increased power to counter drag and set up the three degree still coupled approach. Due to the "failed" clutch motor on the No 1 thrust lever, that lever stayed closed at idle while the No 2 engine spooled up to high power required by gear and landing flap down. Initially about 75% N1. The PF must have seen the control wheel deflection - in fact both pilots would have been aware of it as they were both experienced on type. Yet, neither pilot said a thing.
The autopilot reacted by applying considerable control wheel rotation to counter the increasing yaw and roll. The PF and PM still had their hands on their knees as per company SOP. At 1500 feet the autopilot suddenly disengaged itself, unable to cope with gross control wheel angle.
Under the influence of high thrust on one engine and idle thrust on the other engine, with the PF taking absolutely no action (not even rudder) to prevent the aircraft from rolling into a spiral, the PF then, to the astonishment of the simulator instructor, called for the engine failure and shut down checklist. The PF's hands were still glued to his knees. There was nothing wrong with the idle power engine that manually pushing up its thrust lever would not have fixed.
While the PM was heads down scrabbling around the floor trying to locate the QRH page on engine failures, the 737 went into an ever steepening spiral past 90 degrees angle of bank all the time the PF kept both hands on his knees shouting for the PM to hurry up and read the QRH
The simulator instructor then mercifully "froze" the simulator to prevent further "loss of face." The apparent culture of the operator meant that the PM would not dare to speak up.
if the PF had kept his hand on the thrust levers during the ILS approach, he would have quickly picked up the ever increasing split thrust levers and (hopefully) take the appropriate action of disengaging the autothrottles and operated them manually.
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On the other hand, as I have mentioned earlier, there are multiple very valid reasons to guard the thrust levers in approach.
I doubt the romanian A310 crew had much time to contemplate non-normal checklists when they flipped over due to a throttle jam
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I think is mainly a matter of risk assessment here.
Personally, the only occasion I could think I may need to move my hand back on the thrust levers after V1 is if we have to deal with an engine failure after V1 during a flex take off, on a wet runway with a big split between V1 and Vr, a very heavy aircraft on an hot/humid day.
If I have any doubt (especially regarding the second segment) I may elect to use TOGA immediately when still on ground, touching the thrust levers after V1.
Obviously, if that were the case, I would have already informed my colleague during the emergency part of the take off briefing so as to prevent him / her from thinking that I am rejecting the take-off after the V1.
Personally I cannot think of other contingencies for which I would go back to getting my hands on the thrust levers during climb out and below a safe altitude (except wind shear of course, that’s a memory item anyway …).
Just my 2 cents …
Personally, the only occasion I could think I may need to move my hand back on the thrust levers after V1 is if we have to deal with an engine failure after V1 during a flex take off, on a wet runway with a big split between V1 and Vr, a very heavy aircraft on an hot/humid day.
If I have any doubt (especially regarding the second segment) I may elect to use TOGA immediately when still on ground, touching the thrust levers after V1.
Obviously, if that were the case, I would have already informed my colleague during the emergency part of the take off briefing so as to prevent him / her from thinking that I am rejecting the take-off after the V1.
Personally I cannot think of other contingencies for which I would go back to getting my hands on the thrust levers during climb out and below a safe altitude (except wind shear of course, that’s a memory item anyway …).
Just my 2 cents …
Last edited by EI-PAUL; 11th Apr 2018 at 17:03. Reason: corrections
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In the beginning of aviation, there was no V1.
Then they realized a V1 was needed. Good.
But why to remove one's hand, if only for increased awareness about commitment to go, as some say?
Answering "Checked!" would be enough.
But no, you MUST REMOVE your hand from there!
Why?
Because it' dangerous.
Countless accidents have happened because the captain initiated a reject beyond V1.
Either because:
A wrong decision.
An instinctive reaction in panic or whatever.
A heart attack or similar.
The captain of a BOAC Trident suffered one, and the takeoff was rekected when just airborne.... all dead.
Or, the captain of a Garuda DC10 rejected after V1 because eng2 exploded... 150 deads....
And the list is very long.
It is nowadays universally accepted that the ***** hand must be removed at V1 because leaving it there IS DANGEROUS!
Why is it so dangerous?
Because the mishap is NOT REVERSIBLE at low altitude.
Now, if it is true that the hand MUST be removed, the question is:
WHEN CAN I PUT IT BACK THERE?
Isn't it ridiculous to remove it at V1 and put it right back after a couple of seconds, as many do?
How come nobody in aviation culture has raised this matter so far???
I get scared when my FO put their hand there during rotation right after I've removed mine!
(When I see that, I promptly put mine back again behind theirs to guard from a catastrophic mishap!!!)
This thing is written nowhere, so I can't blame them.
I can only blame the general lack of insight.
Now, as it is also universally agreed to take no action below 400ft in case of failure, BECAUSE A POSSIBLE MISHAP WOULD NOT BE REVERSIBLE, I suggest to use the same value as the earliest time when one can put his hand back on the thrust levers, as a mishap would then be reversible.
Once again, and to all my fella, I DONT WANNA SEE ANY HAND THERE BELOW 400 feet during takeoff!!!
On the contrary, putting your hand there is a MUST during the approach, and even during taxi!!! (see the Pegasus Trabzon accident for what can happen during taxi....)
Then they realized a V1 was needed. Good.
But why to remove one's hand, if only for increased awareness about commitment to go, as some say?
Answering "Checked!" would be enough.
But no, you MUST REMOVE your hand from there!
Why?
Because it' dangerous.
Countless accidents have happened because the captain initiated a reject beyond V1.
Either because:
A wrong decision.
An instinctive reaction in panic or whatever.
A heart attack or similar.
The captain of a BOAC Trident suffered one, and the takeoff was rekected when just airborne.... all dead.
Or, the captain of a Garuda DC10 rejected after V1 because eng2 exploded... 150 deads....
And the list is very long.
It is nowadays universally accepted that the ***** hand must be removed at V1 because leaving it there IS DANGEROUS!
Why is it so dangerous?
Because the mishap is NOT REVERSIBLE at low altitude.
Now, if it is true that the hand MUST be removed, the question is:
WHEN CAN I PUT IT BACK THERE?
Isn't it ridiculous to remove it at V1 and put it right back after a couple of seconds, as many do?
How come nobody in aviation culture has raised this matter so far???
I get scared when my FO put their hand there during rotation right after I've removed mine!
(When I see that, I promptly put mine back again behind theirs to guard from a catastrophic mishap!!!)
This thing is written nowhere, so I can't blame them.
I can only blame the general lack of insight.
Now, as it is also universally agreed to take no action below 400ft in case of failure, BECAUSE A POSSIBLE MISHAP WOULD NOT BE REVERSIBLE, I suggest to use the same value as the earliest time when one can put his hand back on the thrust levers, as a mishap would then be reversible.
Once again, and to all my fella, I DONT WANNA SEE ANY HAND THERE BELOW 400 feet during takeoff!!!
On the contrary, putting your hand there is a MUST during the approach, and even during taxi!!! (see the Pegasus Trabzon accident for what can happen during taxi....)
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Being ready to advance Thrust levers to TOGA in case you need, as many say, is nonsense!
Except for winshear, there is no reason to do that!
And increasing thrust on the working engine when one fails is a very bad idea!
The risks of an instinctive wrong decision to abort are way higher than the microsecond it takes to put your hand back there in case of windshear!
Except for winshear, there is no reason to do that!
And increasing thrust on the working engine when one fails is a very bad idea!
The risks of an instinctive wrong decision to abort are way higher than the microsecond it takes to put your hand back there in case of windshear!
LEM,
BOAC never operated Tridents. It's a good idea to check the facts before posting.
BOAC never operated Tridents. It's a good idea to check the facts before posting.
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One particular 737 operator (Asian) had a policy during an instrument approach of both pilots putting their hands on their knees .....
....
...
The simulator instructor then mercifully "froze" the simulator to prevent further "loss of face." The apparent culture of the operator meant that the PM would not dare to speak up.
if the PF had kept his hand on the thrust levers during the ILS approach, he would have quickly picked up the ever increasing split thrust levers and (hopefully) take the appropriate action of disengaging the autothrottles and operated them manually.
....
...
The simulator instructor then mercifully "froze" the simulator to prevent further "loss of face." The apparent culture of the operator meant that the PM would not dare to speak up.
if the PF had kept his hand on the thrust levers during the ILS approach, he would have quickly picked up the ever increasing split thrust levers and (hopefully) take the appropriate action of disengaging the autothrottles and operated them manually.
Apart from that engine failure means putting the other engine on MCT which would involve the thrust levers does it not?
Sounds to me they normally only trained engine failures after being told: now we train engine failure.
Surprising autopilot disconnects sound like something that should be sprinkled all over other simulator training. But i guess that doesn't leave time for the required items that are to be trained.
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Also, putting your hands behind will make FO suprised and he will be looking what are you doing. You will be also focusing more then neccessary to thrust levers which means that both of you are not completely focused on instruments when you should be to the maximum.
Don’t invent procedures! That is one of the most dangerous things in aviation today.
Following your logic, do you have your hands behind levers also during short finals. What if your FO cuts power at 100ft?
Do you check where your FO holds his feet during TO when you are PF? Fully on pedals or heels on the floor?
Do you ever go out on a toilet during cruise, crossing Atlantic? Do you believe that your FO will handle engine fail correctly? Do you brief him before exiting cockpit?
There are too many ‘if situations’ and it’s impossible to guard against all of them.
Type rating should mean that you know how to operate the aircraft safely and in accordance with SOP. We all know there are better and worse guys, but most are in standard. Germanwings FO was probably quite standard FO....
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My favourite exercise in the sim is EFTO followed by NPA using LNAV/VNAV AUTOPILOT FLIGHT DIRECTOR to minimums.For some reason more than 60% of trainees end up losing control and crash due to poor thrust/trim management (not an issue on an airbus due to auto rudder trim and a/t).They can fly a S/E ILS without a problem but this exercise causes a LOT of grief.........strange.