What is the reason for turning off fuel pumps after shutdown.(a320)
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Yes? And once the cockpit preparation is finished the fueller is still hooked up. Look, sometimes they've finished but sometimes they haven't, there is nothing in our SOPs that ensures the fuelling has finished before the PF does the overhead panel.
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How do you accomplish a 25 minute turn in an A320? The shortest I’ve seen is closer to 45 mins maybe.
Only half a speed-brake
Otherwise, the critical path is the cabin. Hence:
- remote parking, 2 sets of stairs
- deplane 5 minutes
- 10 min cleaning
- 5 min CC procedures, security check
- 10 min pax boarding
- 2 min head-count
- 3 minutes for engine start (IAE)
It is necessary for CC to be exactly on their marks for the above, needless to say it is the redcap who runs the show. The weakest link in my experience is the delay between cleaners leaving and first PAP stepping inside.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 10th Jun 2020 at 22:48.
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35 is the target for quite a large portion of the European ops. Doable, for anything below 30 in my personal experience the crew procedures become limiting.
Otherwise, the critical path is the cabin. Hence:
- remote parking, 2 sets of stairs
- deplane 5 minutes
- 10 min cleaning
- 5 min CC procedures, security check
- 10 min pax boarding
- 2 min head-count
- 3 minutes for engine start (IAE)
It is necessary for CC to be exactly on their marks for the above, needless to say it is the redcap who runs the show. The weakest link in my experience is the delay between cleaners leaving and first PAP stepping inside.
Otherwise, the critical path is the cabin. Hence:
- remote parking, 2 sets of stairs
- deplane 5 minutes
- 10 min cleaning
- 5 min CC procedures, security check
- 10 min pax boarding
- 2 min head-count
- 3 minutes for engine start (IAE)
It is necessary for CC to be exactly on their marks for the above, needless to say it is the redcap who runs the show. The weakest link in my experience is the delay between cleaners leaving and first PAP stepping inside.
Going strictly by literature, it says during cockpit preparation no white light. So either put the fuel pumps on during refuelling or do the prep after refuelling. I am sure you are aware of the A320 incident where the crew taxied, took off and climbed to 370 when both engines flamed out and during dual engine flame out procedure they realized that the fuel pumps were off. They relit engines came back and landed.
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In a previous company where we still had aircraft cleaning we planned 45 minutes for an A321, and that was very much manageable. In a LCC world where there is no aircraft cleaning during turn around, just a short tidy by the cabin crew which includes the security check. Head count is not necessary, and thankfully engine start is a bit faster on the CFM, except the LEAP if you are unlucky enough to have a NEO.
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In a previous company where we still had aircraft cleaning we planned 45 minutes for an A321, and that was very much manageable. In a LCC world where there is no aircraft cleaning during turn around, just a short tidy by the cabin crew which includes the security check. Head count is not necessary, and thankfully engine start is a bit faster on the CFM, except the LEAP if you are unlucky enough to have a NEO.
Only half a speed-brake
No jetty for the superquick ops. AOBT is the first movement.
In reality a flash turnaround can be achieved, even repeatedly. But maybe 30%? There would be a padding in the block-flight-block times, to allow some schedule recovery. With a PRM passenger everything goes to hell. Unless you are flying for one of the three strongest LoCos, where penalties on the ground service providers are dire. And everyone else needs to wait.
What was this thread about again? Oh that, shared 2 years ago
In reality a flash turnaround can be achieved, even repeatedly. But maybe 30%? There would be a padding in the block-flight-block times, to allow some schedule recovery. With a PRM passenger everything goes to hell. Unless you are flying for one of the three strongest LoCos, where penalties on the ground service providers are dire. And everyone else needs to wait.
What was this thread about again? Oh that, shared 2 years ago
Originally Posted by MAR18
I read the explanation with a bit of sadness.
[...] went to great lengths to wipe off the habit of leaving the pumps OFF, citing the no-white-lights rule. Now, 7 years later on the internet, I read that it does not apply to Fuel Pumps before refuelling ends? Yuck. And maybe that the AMM even specifies so!
Their logic that SOPs are well applied because during CKPT PREP the re-fuelling is finished is utter rubbish. That was NEVER true at any turn-around, since A320 day 1.
[...] went to great lengths to wipe off the habit of leaving the pumps OFF, citing the no-white-lights rule. Now, 7 years later on the internet, I read that it does not apply to Fuel Pumps before refuelling ends? Yuck. And maybe that the AMM even specifies so!
Their logic that SOPs are well applied because during CKPT PREP the re-fuelling is finished is utter rubbish. That was NEVER true at any turn-around, since A320 day 1.
Yeah, a push back is an extra 5 minutes leeway on the turn time.
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No jetty for the superquick ops. AOBT is the first movement.
In reality a flash turnaround can be achieved, even repeatedly. But maybe 30%? There would be a padding in the block-flight-block times, to allow some schedule recovery. With a PRM passenger everything goes to hell. Unless you are flying for one of the three strongest LoCos, where penalties on the ground service providers are dire. And everyone else needs to wait.
What was this thread about again? Oh that, shared 2 years ago
In reality a flash turnaround can be achieved, even repeatedly. But maybe 30%? There would be a padding in the block-flight-block times, to allow some schedule recovery. With a PRM passenger everything goes to hell. Unless you are flying for one of the three strongest LoCos, where penalties on the ground service providers are dire. And everyone else needs to wait.
What was this thread about again? Oh that, shared 2 years ago
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I’ve only deplaned via stairs a few times, but the turn time was always the same. If anything, the rear door is only usually opened for the cleaners to board.
Even in a legacy carrier before i joined some LCCs we were happy to park on a remote stand, boarding and deboarding via two stairs is simply much faster than with just one entry. And yes, if possible, we always let the passengers deplane via both exits, it is nice for them and better for us.
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Thanks for the clarification on the delay code. Never seen that tracked here. I quite like the stairs, if I’m being honest. Shame we don’t do it more- as long as the weather’s cooperating.
Only half a speed-brake
Point being for below 30 min you pretty much need two stairs so there are no dual turnaround targets, rather the airline might selectively choose to use remote only. Also, failure of turning on time has financial implications for the GHA. Having a SLA that specifies turnaround extra of 5 mins = 300 EUR penalty is not unheard of. Then it's fair to allow 3 minutes for engine start, once things are getting Excel'd. If the Teutonic system come up with a dedicated delay code, nobody really is surprised.
Only half a speed-brake
Careful what you wish for. Imagine the cockpit load, more especially the lack of any lull to rev the brain down, if the target turnaround becomes 35 min. The GHA will learn how to match that so, day in and out, you'll be expected to make it too. Not to mention the possibility of 5 sector days.
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Careful what you wish for. Imagine the cockpit load, more especially the lack of any lull to rev the brain down, if the target turnaround becomes 35 min. The GHA will learn how to match that so, day in and out, you'll be expected to make it too. Not to mention the possibility of 5 sector days.
So even if the working conditions are good, which they are at some outfits, although that might change now very fast, LCC flying is very hard work indeed, for both cabin crew and flight deck.
Originally Posted by Denti
Indeed, doing only minimum turnarounds can be very fatiguing. Especially for the PM (who does the walkaround where i work, but also the load calculation) it can be hard to get enough breathing time to visit the loo, especially when he is new to the operation.
So even if the working conditions are good, which they are at some outfits, although that might change now very fast, LCC flying is very hard work indeed, for both cabin crew and flight deck.
So even if the working conditions are good, which they are at some outfits, although that might change now very fast, LCC flying is very hard work indeed, for both cabin crew and flight deck.
To each, their own. Personally I'd much rather do a four sector day with minimum turn times rather than have a five to ten minute lull each time. Get to work, bang out the sectors, go home, that's my ideal work schedule.