Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

Your airbus procedures : Fuel pumps ON or OFF during refueling ?

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

Your airbus procedures : Fuel pumps ON or OFF during refueling ?

Old 30th Jan 2018, 13:27
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Middle Europe
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
not really sure about this , but for sure , other documents are recommending not to do it ...
FCOM explicitly allows to start and/or shut down APU
During refuel/defuel procedures, APU starts or shutdown are permitted with the following restrictions:
If the APU failed to start or following an automatic APU shutdown, do not start the APU
If a fuel spill occurs, perform a normal APU shutdown.
you could even have one engine running while refueling if you have no APU/GPU available

where the fuel truck is plugged to the Aircraft ...?
depends on the option your company bought. A320 is available with refuel couplings on either side.

...some other operators simply say ‘ airbus says all white lights out’...
our FCOM has an specific note adressing that
ALL WHITE LIGHTS...................EXTINGUISH
It is a general rule to turn off all the white lights during the scan sequence; therefore, these actions are not listed here.
Fuel pumps shall remain OFF until refueling is completed.
the reason? no word about it
sierra_mike is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2018, 14:34
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
it's not like there are fumes anywhere but in the fuel tank.

jet-A itself is not that flammable at all. Don't know what all the fuss is about.
also it will not produce significant gases until at high altitude the pressure drops.

for a comparison with regular gasoline check this nice video:
https://youtu.be/7nL10C7FSbE?t=128

So any reason for leaving the fuel pumps off is more likely an overpressure / overflow / spill problem than anything else.

Matmax: i don't know what exactly why you point to TWA800 the fuel quantity indication system created sparks in the gases above the kerosene. that's obviously bad.

i'm not certain a fuel pump creating sparks would do anything while submerged in kerosene. the kerosene simply wouldn't care.

also what makes the time of refueling so much more dangerous than any other time?

the vapors should be vented in a controlled manner somewhere they dissipate.

Last edited by wiedehopf; 30th Jan 2018 at 15:28.
wiedehopf is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2018, 14:35
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: nowhere and everywhere
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by sierra_mike
FCOM explicitly allows to start and/or shut down APU

you could even have one engine running while refueling if you have no APU/GPU available


depends on the option your company bought. A320 is available with refuel couplings on either side.


our FCOM has an specific note adressing that


the reason? no word about it
SM , different Companies , different procédures and different standards ...
of course , you can even board or offboard passengers , Nothing is impossible ...
if APU or GPU is not available , you DO NOT NEED an engine running as refuelling can be accomplished with batteries ONLY ...
in the worst case , absolutely no power at all required as refuelling can be done manually ... this is valid for any Aircraft ...
Sir , i know a bit about the A320 , thank you , what is the most common practise ...?
no word about it as it is the Airbus philosophy , simple as that ...
MATMAX is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2018, 14:56
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Middle Europe
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
if APU or GPU is not available , you DO NOT NEED an engine running as refuelling can be accomplished with batteries ONLY ...
true that! but how do you plan to start the engines again once everything is shut down when you don't have any pneumatic source?
sierra_mike is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2018, 14:57
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: nowhere and everywhere
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
wiedehopf , where the fuel is coming from ? are you sure that all trucks are in perfect condition ?
never saw sparks at the exhaust on some loaders , tractors , etc ...?
oh thank you YouTube ahahah ...
"So any reason for leaving the fuel pumps off is more likely an overpressure / overflow / spill problem than anything else."
absolutely not Sir , simply as they are not required for refuelling ...

a lot of sparks are created in and around an Aircraft , thats the reason why , all AMMs have warnings at the beginning of the refuelling sections , normally , Nothing is allowed during refuelling except what is needed for the refuelling ...
"also what makes the time of refueling so much more dangerous than any other time?"
i am puzzled here ... i see you are in Germany , but for sure , not German , heard about safety first ?
Sir , thats the most Dangerous time when the Aircraft is on the ground for so obvious reasons ...
MATMAX is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2018, 15:02
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: nowhere and everywhere
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by sierra_mike
true that! but how do you plan to start the engines again once everything is shut down when you don't have any pneumatic source?
not available or unserviceable ?
heard about ASU ? Air Start Unit ...
i thought people here were talking about refuelling
MATMAX is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2018, 15:16
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: nowhere and everywhere
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
lets go back to the original question : Fuel pumps ON or OFF during refueling ?
whatever , both can be done , it is just "better" , more safe to do it with the pumps OFF.
on the technical side
now , to make your life more easy and not forget to put them back ON before engine starts , you can leave them ON , even if the engines do not need the pumps to start and run ... because they are LOW pressure pumps , the HIGH pressure pumps are fitted on the engine gearboxes , whatever the engine family/type is ...
MATMAX is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2018, 15:18
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by MATMAX
wiedehopf , where the fuel is coming from ? are you sure that all trucks are in perfect condition ?
never saw sparks at the exhaust on some loaders , tractors , etc ...?
oh thank you YouTube ahahah ...
Ok so your logic is the refueling trucks are spilling fuel and making sparks.

Therefore safety first means switching off all fuel pumps.
I'd say that's grade A logic.

Doesn't matter how well you know aircraft, to me you are incoherently yelling DANGER DANGER!
wiedehopf is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2018, 15:23
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Middle Europe
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by MATMAX
not available or unserviceable ?
heard about ASU ? Air Start Unit ...
of course i do know what an air starter is good for. but what do you do when there is none and you don't have a working APU aboard? you have to keep 1 engine running, thats why this procedure exists in the manuals. but yes: off topic, just wanted to point out you can have various things going on during refuelling. not everything has to be shut down.
sierra_mike is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2018, 15:38
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: nowhere and everywhere
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by wiedehopf
Ok so your logic is the refueling trucks are spilling fuel and making sparks.

Therefore safety first means switching off all fuel pumps.
I'd say that's grade A logic.

Doesn't matter how well you know aircraft, to me you are incoherently yelling DANGER DANGER!
Sir , yelling is useless ...
you can not even imagine how many times WARNING and DANGER are written in the refuelling sections of any AMMs , for obvious reasons ...
MATMAX is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2018, 15:45
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: nowhere and everywhere
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by sierra_mike
of course i do know what an air starter is good for. but what do you do when there is none and you don't have a working APU aboard? you have to keep 1 engine running, thats why this procedure exists in the manuals. but yes: off topic, just wanted to point out you can have various things going on during refuelling. not everything has to be shut down.
Sir , keeping an engine running is the last solution ... but wait a minute please ... there is no GPU , the APU is U/S , no ASU available ... your Company does not know about it ? they are sending you to this place ? you are accepting to fly there ?
different companies , different standards ...
MATMAX is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2018, 16:23
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Middle Europe
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
that's a whole different story and you are missing the point. again: i just wanted to point out that this procedure exists indicating a lot of stuff can be done during refueling under certain circumstances. that doesn't mean we're doing that on a regular basis it comes along with a lot of safety measures as it is a hairy situation. every sane PIC will avoid it. but airbus gives you the option, might come in handy one day on a bloody deserted airfield. period.

this thread is drifting unnecessarily, back to original question!

Last edited by sierra_mike; 30th Jan 2018 at 16:51.
sierra_mike is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2018, 22:30
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
Posts: 2,991
Received 14 Likes on 10 Posts
Just follow the Aircraft manufacturers SOP and you’ll be fine.

Thousands of trips every single day and I’ve not heard of one problem caused by switching on the pumps.

KISS method
ACMS is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2018, 23:15
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 4,282
Received 131 Likes on 59 Posts
And if you're really worried, get your tech pilot to submit a tech request to Airbus.

Airbus do permit refuelling with one engine running, but most regulators and companies don't. The trouble with threads like this is that people reply with their company limitations, not realising that they are just that - company limits. They might be brought about by fleet commonality with Boeings, or old wives tales, archaic regulators or crusty chief pilots still living in the DC10 days. Other companies with different circumstances, training, locations etc may elect to do it.
compressor stall is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2018, 23:53
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: In Sin
Age: 53
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I recently obtained a A320 rating at CTE . I have over 200 hours of flying experience .
I understand its a captains descision wether to leave the pumps on or off .

I tend to select them on if the TAT probe indicates above 20 degrees , and leave them all off if the TAT indicated is below 10 deg. This I think is to prevent cavitation?

If the OAT is between 10 and 20 degrees , as a captain , I can choose to leave some standby pumps off and the main pumps on . It works well in my experience .

As always, when you are an experienced captain , its your choice , not anyone elses.
TheGreenDragon is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2018, 01:52
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
Posts: 2,991
Received 14 Likes on 10 Posts
Oh boy, you’ve got 200 hours and you’re already making up your own procedures. Even an experienced Captain cannot just vary or makeup his own procedures unless he has a very sound reason for doing so at the time.

SOP’s are there to be followed for a damn good reason and it usually involves saving your ass both during the event and after in any subsequent investigation.

STOP IT.

Follow your Airbus approved AFM FCOM and don’t make up stuff yourself mate.

It’s not hard surely.


p.s. what has the TAT got to do with fuel pump issues? Is there anything in the A320 FCOM that refers to TAT and fuel pump usage on the ground?

Is your TAT probe aspirated on the ground? Because if it’s sitting in the Sun it will over read, if it’s wet and windy it will under read. It’s not reliable until the Engines are running.
ACMS is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2018, 02:28
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 4,787
Received 7 Likes on 3 Posts
The Maintenance Manual procedure for refuelling has the pumps off during the procedure. However, as refuelling rarely starts in the A320 series until the crew arrives, the pumps usually get switched on as part of the pre flight preparation as this appears to be the majority of operator's SOPs due to following the Airbus philosophy.
Dan Winterland is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2018, 04:04
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Can you specify what section of the MM requires fuel pumps to be off as I have just reread my copy and I cannot find that anywhere.
Highway1 is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2018, 08:38
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 3,396
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
OK guys below is the answer I had obtained a few years back from airbus Flt.Ops.
Regarding the operation of fuel pumps in standard/normal conditions, we would like to confirm that Airbus recommendation is to switch OFF all fuel pumps at the end of the flight, and to turn them back ON during the cockpit preparation.
The references in the Airbus operational documentation are the following ones:

- At the end of the flight, Airbus SOP (Refer to FCOM-PRO-NOR-SOP-22 P 2/4) requests the flight crew to set FUEL PUMPS to OFF

- During the cockpit preparation, Airbus SOP (Refer to FCOM-PRO-NOR-SOP-06 P 3/20) states “It is a general rule to turn off all white lights during the scan sequence; therefore, these actions are not listed here”, namely to turn OFF all white lights for all the related systems.

The reason for this policy is to avoid operation of fuel pumps in an empty fuel tank, and also avoid unwanted fuel transfers (which can affect and potentially abort refueling process). That is the reason why the recommendation to switch OFF the fuel pumps before refueling is not explicitly provided into the FCOM, because this recommendation is implicitly covers by SOPs in standard operations (i.e. when refueling is performed before the cockpit preparation).
Please be informed that there are no restrictions/limitations to have fuel pumps running during the refueling as long as they do not run dry (in an empty tank, which in any cases should never be more than 10 minutes).

However, the general recommendation (not mandatory) is to have the fuel pumps switched OFF during refueling, in order to ensure that the possibility of pump dry running is avoided. It is particularly relevant for the center tank pumps, because the center tank is most of the time empty at the end of the flight. Switching OFF the center tank pumps ensures in all cases that they do not run during refuelling.

When performing the cockpit preparation, it is assumed that the refuelling (if needed) has been performed previously. As a result, if Airbus SOPs are well applied, all the fuel pumps will be correctly switched OFF during refueling.
vilas is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2018, 15:29
  #40 (permalink)  
C.M
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: international
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Vilas thank you very much for this piece of info , I got what I was looking for.
C.M is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.