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Old 7th Oct 2017, 16:06   #1 (permalink)
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PAPI U/S. Consequences ?

For a class C aircraft ( Airbus A 320 ) in Europe . A NDB procedure with the PAPI inop implies any limitation ? Is it legal to fly it ? EASA - OPS Failed or Downgraded Equipment table does not contains PAPI situation.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 16:26   #2 (permalink)
 
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At minimums it is necessary to have the 'visual reference' in sight to continue to land. PAPI is not part of the visual reference, and any competent pilot, with the a/c stabilised and in trim, should be able to (probably disconnect the A/P) manually land the a/c on the correct point.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 18:54   #3 (permalink)
 
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What does the plate say? Depending on the procedure, there may be certain instances where it must be operational.

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Old 7th Oct 2017, 23:18   #4 (permalink)
 
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That might be a local, French, requirement rather than an EASA one? And it applies to the Circle procedure not a straight in.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 23:23   #5 (permalink)
 
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I was surprised to even see it even required for circling. In the last week I've flown several Non Precision circling approaches to runways without PAPI (And some without TDZ Markings). I'm with RAT5.. this shouldn't be an issue for a current crew .
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 23:59   #6 (permalink)

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That place is a bit peculiar. For the straight-in from the opposite side, it has an approach angle of 3,8 deg, displaced threshold to accomodate the profile above a ciritical obstacle that is 3,2 NM from the runway and stands 980 ft tall, dead centre on the final track. PAPI requirement fully justified at night.

But the answer to the original question is NO downgrade or requirements, in my books.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 00:08   #7 (permalink)
 
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KBHM?.....
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 00:21   #8 (permalink)

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According to my LIDO charts KBHM rwy 36 is daylight only, PAPI not installed and circle to land not authorized The obstacle at 1 NM / +600 ft explains nicely.

The above chart is LFMH.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 00:30   #9 (permalink)
 
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Missed the AIP reference at the bottom.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 14:02   #10 (permalink)
 
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Sorry, guess I should have included the whole chart...it is LFMH.
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 05:43   #11 (permalink)
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Thank you for your answers ,Looking further ICAO Annex 14 vol 1 is providing the following information :

"5.3.5.1 A visual approach slope indicator system shall be provided to serve the approach to a runway whether or not
the runway is served by other visual approach aids or by non-visual aids, where one or more of the following conditions exist:
a)
the runway is used by turbojet or other aeroplanes with similar approach guidance requirements;
b)
the pilot of any type of aeroplane may have difficulty in judging the approach due to:
1)
inadequate visual guidance such as is experienced during an approach over water or featureless
terrain by day or in the absence of sufficient extraneous lights in the approach area by night, or
2)
misleading information such as is produced by deceptive surrounding terrain or runway slopes;
c)
the presence of objects in the approach area may involve serious hazard if an aeroplane descends below the
normal approach path, particularly if there are no non-visual or other visual aids to give warning of such
objects;
d)
physical conditions at either end of the runway present a serious hazard in the event of an aeroplane
undershooting or overrunning the runway; and
e)
terrain or prevalent meteorological conditions are such that the aeroplane may be subjected to unusual
turbulence during approach."

But it doesn't say what happens if PAPI is inop .
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 05:53   #12 (permalink)
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Actually is a kinda' challeging approach due to high terrain surroundings and steep angle :
Attached Images
File Type: jpg LRSB.jpg (248.3 KB, 181 views)
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 06:27   #13 (permalink)
 
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Well with the zero to hero types that have never done an approach without PAPI as guidance.

I suspect the Consequences will be destabilised low level.

A snot o gram from flight safety about a deep or short landing.

And possible heavy landing check.
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 07:14   #14 (permalink)
 
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Estreller, I was going to keep out of it but since you have quoted ICAO, in Australia, we are permitted (High Capacity ops) to operate to a runway without slope guidance (ie without GS or PAPI/TVASIS) for 7 days, provided the PIC has demonstrated proficiency in No-Slope landings within the last 9 months. If the landing is at night, that proficiency must have been demonstrated at night. We do it in the sim every cyclic.

Our rule is the basically the same as the ICAO one you quoted; our exemption is an Ops Spec from CASA.
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 07:58   #15 (permalink)
 
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Back in the day when pilots were pilots and pax were relaxed, or perhaps not sometimes, a UK CAA base check required a minimum of 6 circuits, 1 without slope guidance and 3 night landings. This BASIC requirement was removed; I know not why or when. Perhaps JAR in their infinite wisdom had some input. However it is just another example of dumbing down a basic piloting skill.
I was astonished to move to an airline and give TR sim instruction, on an EU XAA approved syllabus, where there was no Night session. As it had been removed as a base training requirement the first time a new pilot would land at night would be on a line flight. Hm??? I questioned this with HOT and a night session was introduced. I wondered at the competent oversight of the XAA and their thinking. The company, before it introduced VNAV approaches forbid no slope guidance approaches. Then, after VNAV, they allowed captains only if a VNAV approach was programmed, but not at night, and the runway beyond a minimum length and full width; i.e. no narrow runway ops.
Seems pilots no longer have the required quality Mk.1 eyeball to judge a 3 degree slope. I'd always thought that if the correct Performance triangle was in balance and the crash point fixed in the window there was a fighting chance you were on the correct slope. Has anything changed?
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 08:38   #16 (permalink)
 
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No RAT

My old out fit though about 6 months after I joined I did a visual onto the nearest end instead of the active as cleared by ATC.

They hadn't turned the PAPI's on or ILS.

The FO wasn't happy at all about continuing passed the stabilisation gate.

We did, I landed... submitted a report as the Fo wasn't happy, mucho discussions afterward even though there is nothing mentioned in the SOP's on the subject with fleet office types

FDR confirmed I was within limits for an ILS profile I was stabilised 500ft early so the noise died down.

But because of the noise it created I don't think I would do it again even though it was perfectly safe. The boss said he would have been happy with breaking into a circle round onto the active runway if it would happen again. I still did them but now get confirmation that the PAPI's are turned on before accepting the clearance. But to be honest they need 5-10mins to warm up to give a calibrated glideslope so turning them on 3 mins before arrival is just a ticking a box exercise.

Some of them have never done anything other than 3 deg approaches with papi even when they were doing there SEP phase of there training. After they have seen me doing a couple a few ask me how to do visuals. But the majority are really not interested. And the ones that think they can do them expertly usually end up with a longer finals than if we were on vectors and sub 160knts by about 6 miles thus making the whole exercise a bit pointless.
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 10:50   #17 (permalink)
 
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G'Day Bloggs. Have you got a reference for that? I was going to chime in before you with my understanding of the regs from many years ago that it was PAPI for RPT but not charter. Went to look it up before I made a fool of myself and now can't find it! Thanks
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 11:43   #18 (permalink)
 
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If you want to avoid the NDB09 and have sufficient weather, there´s another good option at SBZ.

A visual approach is normally gladly cleared by the approachers. The runway is usually very nicely visible already from far: a long grey stripe west of the city, right south of a light industrial area with several halls and large grain silos. I personally like to fly a bit north of the mountain range, turn into a sort of base between the points named SOF1 and SOF2 on the shown chart and then end up nicely established at about 6 to 7 miles. You will find the runway 09 sloping down noticeably and there is also steeply rising terrain just in front of the threshold (the airport is situated on a little plateau). The optics on the approach are a bit unusual consequently, and also the radar altimeter overreads by about 100 feet due to this. Also, there may be a little bit of turbulence on short final in moderate wind conditions.

Or, wind permitting, radar vectors for an ILS 27 are available at SBZ as well. They will usually guide you in from the north, do consider keeping the speed low on the right base so you do not overshoot the localizer to the south.
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 14:10   #19 (permalink)
 
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Here is the entire chart, as well as the RNAV Rwy 36 that illustrates the terrain issues associated with Runway 36. When a note is attached to minimums, it becomes a conditional part of the minimums. If the PAPI for 36 is inoperative you cannot circle to Runway 36 from any of the IAPs for Runway 18 (there are also 3 RNAV IAPs to Rwy 18, all with the same conditional note.) No matter whether Ops Specs are involved, or not; this note applies to everyone when the Runway 36 PAPI is inoperative at night.
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File Type: jpg LFMN NDB Rwy 18.jpg (217.0 KB, 136 views)
File Type: jpg LFMH RNAV Rwy 36.jpg (297.4 KB, 132 views)
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Old 10th Oct 2017, 04:57   #20 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Compressor Stall
Have you got a reference for that?
Here 'tis:

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2015C00131

Section 5.3.
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