Interesting scenario A320
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BK
Once the procedure is understood in it's entirety then it's applicability at a different stage should be included in approach briefing so nothing is left to chance or confusion during execution. Airbus go around was discussed in 2009 Toulouse Instructor meeting. I had quoted that one year ago. The Emirates Dubai accident may have been avoided if the variation in the go around procedure after touch down was included in the briefing. They carried out normal go around actions which doesn't advance throttles to TOGA if the aircraft has touched down. So with only idle power the aircraft came down and the PM thought he was being smart had retracted the gear quickly without checking sustained climb. That is another popular mistake because people think they may forget to raise the gear. FMA is more important. It ensures everything from TOGA to FDs in GA.
Once the procedure is understood in it's entirety then it's applicability at a different stage should be included in approach briefing so nothing is left to chance or confusion during execution. Airbus go around was discussed in 2009 Toulouse Instructor meeting. I had quoted that one year ago. The Emirates Dubai accident may have been avoided if the variation in the go around procedure after touch down was included in the briefing. They carried out normal go around actions which doesn't advance throttles to TOGA if the aircraft has touched down. So with only idle power the aircraft came down and the PM thought he was being smart had retracted the gear quickly without checking sustained climb. That is another popular mistake because people think they may forget to raise the gear. FMA is more important. It ensures everything from TOGA to FDs in GA.
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Check Airman
I am in agreement with you that briefing cannot include everything that can go wrong. But GA is not too distant a possibility on any approach. When an aircraft has two distinct procedures for GA it's good thing to include both in the briefing. It's not a new information to be memorized but only reminder of a procedure that the pilots must already know. It should not burden human short term memory.
I am in agreement with you that briefing cannot include everything that can go wrong. But GA is not too distant a possibility on any approach. When an aircraft has two distinct procedures for GA it's good thing to include both in the briefing. It's not a new information to be memorized but only reminder of a procedure that the pilots must already know. It should not burden human short term memory.
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From the FCTM:
I think this should be read that the ATC required speed can indeed be selected on the FCU, but that the aircraft flap position should respect the 'S' and 'F' speeds. - i.e. below 'S' speed, flap 2 should be selected.
I don't think the intention is ever to fly around in extended flight below 'S' speed with only Flap 1 selected. Not a good idea chaps.
Bit like flying around in a Boeing at VREF + 40 with flap 1, when the flaps should be at 5. It's not done.
As a separate discussion, regarding a go-around in flaps 1:
- It's the actual slats or flaps position that determines whether SRS is available. Anything apart from clean will generate it.
- So the the thrust levers need to be in the TOGA detent with MAN TOGA annunciated before the wing is fully clean. Common sense would suggest making the "go-around flaps" call after MAN TOGA is annunciated .
If selected speed is to be used to comply with ATC, the requested speed should be selected on the FCU. A speed below the manoeuvring speed of the present configuration may be selected provided it is above VLS.
I don't think the intention is ever to fly around in extended flight below 'S' speed with only Flap 1 selected. Not a good idea chaps.
Bit like flying around in a Boeing at VREF + 40 with flap 1, when the flaps should be at 5. It's not done.
As a separate discussion, regarding a go-around in flaps 1:
- It's the actual slats or flaps position that determines whether SRS is available. Anything apart from clean will generate it.
- So the the thrust levers need to be in the TOGA detent with MAN TOGA annunciated before the wing is fully clean. Common sense would suggest making the "go-around flaps" call after MAN TOGA is annunciated .
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There are some airports that routinely have you low and slow on arrival for an extended time. No reason to add drag while you're doing it in my opinion.
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Disagree - it says the speed can be selected.
It's up to you to look after the flaps.
Good luck with your technique as the speed comes down to VLS in turbulence etc. with slats only extended. I won't be flying with you.
It's up to you to look after the flaps.
Good luck with your technique as the speed comes down to VLS in turbulence etc. with slats only extended. I won't be flying with you.
Only half a speed-brake
Dale, come on. There is around 40 knots between S speed and Vls. And I do think you are reading the sentence incorrectly.
Flying below manouvering speed for a given conf is not a problem, VLS (or the proximity of) is the reasonable slow limit.
Flying below manouvering speed for a given conf is not a problem, VLS (or the proximity of) is the reasonable slow limit.
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Dale
Not true at all. It's the lever position and not the surface position that allows GA to be available. Even with slats and flaps jammed at the zero flap lever is moved to one to make GA mode available. While airbus has amply clarified that one can fly below F and S speed but when it is required for sustained period appropriate Conf should be selected.
- It's the actual slats or flaps position that determines whether SRS is available.
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Heard some guys used to set flaps 2 then back to flaps 1 to have 1+F during the approach but they got snapped by the training division for doing that. I beleive it's not recommended by Airbus, but I can't find any official documentations about it.
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The flap lever will obviously be in the one detent or greater, but it is indeed whether the wing is clean or not which determines whether SRS is available.
It's in the FCTM somewhere - don't have one in front of me right now
It's in the FCTM somewhere - don't have one in front of me right now
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You can actually fly below VLS even so it's obviously not recommended to do it on purpose . It's V&prot you should be more concerned.
Arctaurus
but it is indeed whether the wing is clean or not which determines whether SRS is available.
It's in the FCTM somewhere - don't have one in front of me right now
It's in the FCTM somewhere - don't have one in front of me right now
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Arctaurus
From FCOM DSC-22_30-80-40 P 1/2
From FCOM DSC-22_30-80-40 P 1/2
Setting at least one thrust lever to the TOGA detent engages both SRS/NAV modes, if:
‐ The flaps lever is at least in position 1, and
‐ The aircraft is in flight, or ‐ The aircraft has been on ground for less than 30 s
‐ The flaps lever is at least in position 1, and
‐ The aircraft is in flight, or ‐ The aircraft has been on ground for less than 30 s
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Hello Vilas, =)
I did not express myself clearly: Yes we shall definitely not fly below VLS. What I try to say is that if for example you are flying with A/THR off and your speed drops slightly below VLS, There is no reason to panic, the aircraft is not going to be on an undesired state as long actions are taken without undue delay. the FCTM states that VAPP can be as low as VLS in case of A/THR off, no ice acreation etc... Surely if your target speed is VLS, they might consider the fact you might fly below it inadvertently. I personally always keep a nice minimum of 5 kt margin from VLS regardless of the kind of the approach. I rather have too much energy than too little.
I did not express myself clearly: Yes we shall definitely not fly below VLS. What I try to say is that if for example you are flying with A/THR off and your speed drops slightly below VLS, There is no reason to panic, the aircraft is not going to be on an undesired state as long actions are taken without undue delay. the FCTM states that VAPP can be as low as VLS in case of A/THR off, no ice acreation etc... Surely if your target speed is VLS, they might consider the fact you might fly below it inadvertently. I personally always keep a nice minimum of 5 kt margin from VLS regardless of the kind of the approach. I rather have too much energy than too little.
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Not looking for an argument.
DSC 22_20-60-40 Flight guidance (extract only)
15 ° when the aircraft speed is below the maneuvering speeds (F, S, or Green Dot speed) -10 kt
Then linear increase to 25 ° up to maneuvering speeds (F, S, or Green Dot speed) -3 kt
25 ° above maneuvering speeds (F, S, or Green Dot speed) -3 kt.
Just to show that Airbus describe them as manoeuvring speeds no matter how they spell it.
DSC 22_20-60-40 Flight guidance (extract only)
15 ° when the aircraft speed is below the maneuvering speeds (F, S, or Green Dot speed) -10 kt
Then linear increase to 25 ° up to maneuvering speeds (F, S, or Green Dot speed) -3 kt
25 ° above maneuvering speeds (F, S, or Green Dot speed) -3 kt.
Just to show that Airbus describe them as manoeuvring speeds no matter how they spell it.
Only half a speed-brake
OEIbankangles_320.png
The double use of the same term is somewhat unfortunate. But we can always have at the definitions chapter as well:
Vspeeds320.png
The double use of the same term is somewhat unfortunate. But we can always have at the definitions chapter as well:
Vspeeds320.png
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FCOM clearly states that SRS will engage as long as you are not in clean configuration. Also in the ABN- Flaps/slats locked at zero it says to set at least the flaps lever to 1 purely in case of Go around to get the go around mode engaged when you set TOGA. So It's definetely regardless of the actual slats/flaps postion.
Last edited by pineteam; 10th Oct 2017 at 12:07. Reason: Typo
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Arctaurus and mrs nomer
Not your fault, surely you will find it in FCTM. But it is one big howler by Airbus. It is simply not true. Not because I say so but because FCOM says so, because with slat and flaps jammed even at 0 zero Abnormal procedures ask you to select flap1 to get GA mode. Also FCTM says the following:
So the matter should end there.
When the thrust levers are set to the TOGA detent, and provided the real slats/flaps configuration is different from clean configuration
If the FCTM data differs from the FCOM data, the FCOM remains the reference.
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DSC 22_30-80-40 Go-around.
Setting at least one thrust lever to the TOGA detent engages both SRS/NAV modes, if:
The flaps lever is at least in position 1, and
The aircraft is in flight, or
The aircraft has been on ground for less than 30 s (AP disengages and can be re-engaged 5 s after lift-off).
Pretty clear I would say (My bold).
Setting at least one thrust lever to the TOGA detent engages both SRS/NAV modes, if:
The flaps lever is at least in position 1, and
The aircraft is in flight, or
The aircraft has been on ground for less than 30 s (AP disengages and can be re-engaged 5 s after lift-off).
Pretty clear I would say (My bold).
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well, in real life getting an instruction being on glide but in 2500 ft ( very very uncommon atc gives you such a thing ) to go around ( which is more an instruction to abort the approach than immediately go around in this scenario ) of course there is no need to apply toga and trigger the speed and pitch commands on the airbus but simply to stop descend and smoothly climb out again . adjust vertical speed, adjust flaps as needed and do a normal climbout .
the airbus definition to "go around" is a scenario on short final , being fully configured and at approach speed. in this case the airbus design logic and instructions fully apply .
who gives toga being at 2500ft and roughly 6-8 miles from the threshold at 160 kts ?
this scenario and the thoughts about it seem to be purely theoretical.
best regards
the airbus definition to "go around" is a scenario on short final , being fully configured and at approach speed. in this case the airbus design logic and instructions fully apply .
who gives toga being at 2500ft and roughly 6-8 miles from the threshold at 160 kts ?
this scenario and the thoughts about it seem to be purely theoretical.
best regards