A320 navigation lights, how do you use them, do you alternate between sys 1 and sys 2
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Well, in our company we turn them off when retracting flaps and turn them back on when we lower the landing gear.
So we fly most of our approach without lights (and yes it is because of fuel)
So we fly most of our approach without lights (and yes it is because of fuel)
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Talk about measuring with a micrometer! Landing lights are to see and be seen. It certainly sems like an unusual measure.
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Agreed. In fairness though, it depends on where you're flying. At some sleepy airport in the middle of nowhere, fine. Here in the US, traffic levels are much higher, and lighting is more important.
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The obsession with fuel saving has become so extreme in some pilots' heads that advice in the Ops manual regarding that mythical 1% and considering early retraction has morphed into it being regarded as mandatory. Sadly it only takes a few really anal Captains to insist on switching them off with flap retraction that those FOs who haven't already been brainwashed get "corrected" for not doing so and thus adopt the habit to avoid feeling "criticised" in future - this is how desperately sensitive many are. They soon become Captains and the habit is ingrained in all but a few diehards who remember - and I'm about to swear now - that unmentionable word A*******ip, so you end up with a whole company that habitually flies around in one of the the busiest TMAs in the world in complete darkness.
This thread is itself a worrying product of blind reliance on over rigid SOPs overruling common sense or "that word again" - we really have a problem when people need to ask how to use nav lights because SOP doesn't tell them in infinite detail. And we certainly don't need to be adding unoffical and self-invented "SOPs " to become rigidly and unquestioningly ingrained just because everyone else does it. I found some FOs got most uncomfortable when I left those lights on after flap retraction - hand hovering to and from the switch as though the stupid old fart had forgotten to call for the wheels up! Their pavlovian 1% objections were even more worrrying - some had never even considerd the idea of visibility and dismissed it out of hand as we were IFR and "ATC looks after that". Saving five litres of gas was far more important than being seen, apparently, not that many had even considered there to be an option.
In a world where every single action is an SOP they tend to merge and each become identically important and imperative as the next one so we end up with a whole (very large) company appearing to treat the cycling of Nav lights with equal importance and urgency as observing flap retraction speeds, readbacks or decision heights - and switching landng lights off at 1000ft has (unoficially) become the same too!
It worries the hell out of me, a company where the "A" word has been totally eliminated (I never heard it uttered in over 10 years - truly) in favour of fly-by-numbers.
Last edited by noflynomore; 12th Jul 2017 at 11:48.
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I'd leave them on as we always did, but hey...
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Rural French airports are just the kind of place where I would keep the lights on. However flying into a heavily controlled London TMA, with TCAS huffing and puffing away, most times in IMC anyway...I am not too concerned.
@noflynomore:
Yeah, I know where you're coming from, but dare I hazard that you are of a previous flying generation?, (your forum name would suggest so).
If I am right, you have my total respecr, (and jealousy !); You were one of the lucky ones who flew in the golden years of aviation, but also an era in which the pilots themselves decided how to fly and what to do to remain safe. i.e., before the days of prescriptive SOPs.
Nowadays, we get cadets who flew a Diamond DA62, and then come straight onto an Airbus/Boeing, instead of flying several ancient turboprops on the night mail run for a couple of years, followed by a basic jet before getting onto the big shiny aluminium.
(A wonderful old-school Captain, (Hi Neil), once told me that you knew when you had made it in aviation when your aircraft had the following features:
The nosewheel is behind the cockpit,
There are more toilets than engines,
You don't have to bend down to walk under the fuselage)
.......but I digress.
Anyway, today's aviation has a minimum of training time, and so SOPs have become an important way of bolstering up that lack of journeyman experience. There simply isn't the time available for cadets to learn through long years of observation, so SOPs have become the way to pass on the collected wisdom?
I don't say this is right or wrong, but simply offer it as a thought.
Yeah, I know where you're coming from, but dare I hazard that you are of a previous flying generation?, (your forum name would suggest so).
If I am right, you have my total respecr, (and jealousy !); You were one of the lucky ones who flew in the golden years of aviation, but also an era in which the pilots themselves decided how to fly and what to do to remain safe. i.e., before the days of prescriptive SOPs.
Nowadays, we get cadets who flew a Diamond DA62, and then come straight onto an Airbus/Boeing, instead of flying several ancient turboprops on the night mail run for a couple of years, followed by a basic jet before getting onto the big shiny aluminium.
(A wonderful old-school Captain, (Hi Neil), once told me that you knew when you had made it in aviation when your aircraft had the following features:
The nosewheel is behind the cockpit,
There are more toilets than engines,
You don't have to bend down to walk under the fuselage)
.......but I digress.
Anyway, today's aviation has a minimum of training time, and so SOPs have become an important way of bolstering up that lack of journeyman experience. There simply isn't the time available for cadets to learn through long years of observation, so SOPs have become the way to pass on the collected wisdom?
I don't say this is right or wrong, but simply offer it as a thought.
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The "golden years of aviation" There wasn't much "Golden" when you compare the accident rates over the preceding decades. Obviously technical advances have played a significant part in that improvement, but without doubt the greatest improvement has come about in our understanding and application of human factors.
Too many serviceable aircraft driven into the ground and sea by "ego" and "attitude" that went unchecked for far too long. "Prescriptive SOPs" and "Relevant training" and understand the limitations and application of those factors (which many don't) have been important and hugely successful drivers in improving those safety statistics.
Speaking as one who also grew up in some of those so called "golden years" one ingredient played a far more significant part than it ever really should have. That ingredient was "Luck!" Sadly, it had a tendency to run out rather too frequently.
The last 114 years have been a steep learning curve, and we certainly still have some way to go, but whatever the misty eyed "golden years" were famous for, safety wasn't one of them.
Too many serviceable aircraft driven into the ground and sea by "ego" and "attitude" that went unchecked for far too long. "Prescriptive SOPs" and "Relevant training" and understand the limitations and application of those factors (which many don't) have been important and hugely successful drivers in improving those safety statistics.
Speaking as one who also grew up in some of those so called "golden years" one ingredient played a far more significant part than it ever really should have. That ingredient was "Luck!" Sadly, it had a tendency to run out rather too frequently.
The last 114 years have been a steep learning curve, and we certainly still have some way to go, but whatever the misty eyed "golden years" were famous for, safety wasn't one of them.
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Golden years? Previous generation? Strewth! Mid '90s onwards in airlines...hardly ancient yet. Just a time when you developed as a practical pilot rather than a single type-specific specialist automation operator.
My first proper airline (I use the term loosely) came up with an idea called Essopees and we all looked at each other in amazement and asked what the #### are they, and later what we wanted them for as we knew how to operate the aircraft. We thought it would be a few pages and roared with disbelieving laughter whrn it was published at 70 or so, although that had a lot to do with who had written it and some of the daft things included in it. (Like what to do with your hat in an evacuation - I kid you not).
The sort of all-encompassing SOPs we are tslking about are a phenomenon of only the last fifteen years at most.
My first proper airline (I use the term loosely) came up with an idea called Essopees and we all looked at each other in amazement and asked what the #### are they, and later what we wanted them for as we knew how to operate the aircraft. We thought it would be a few pages and roared with disbelieving laughter whrn it was published at 70 or so, although that had a lot to do with who had written it and some of the daft things included in it. (Like what to do with your hat in an evacuation - I kid you not).
The sort of all-encompassing SOPs we are tslking about are a phenomenon of only the last fifteen years at most.
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(Like what to do with your hat in an evacuation - I kid you not).
The sort of all-encompassing SOPs we are talking about are a phenomenon of only the last fifteen years at most.
We had adopted NASA CRM training by the mid 80s.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...9800013796.pdf
Last edited by Goldenrivett; 14th Jul 2017 at 07:43. Reason: extra typos
Good Evening All:
Getting back to the original question it was simple for our operation System 1 was selected for odd numbered flights System 2 for even numbered flights that way bulbs got even use.
Now to the question of extending landing lights again very simple other then the USA (below 18,000 for high performance VFR) lights were out at 10,000. With regards to vibration very little and it sounds like a mountain out of a mole hill as it pays to be visible.....
Getting back to the original question it was simple for our operation System 1 was selected for odd numbered flights System 2 for even numbered flights that way bulbs got even use.
Now to the question of extending landing lights again very simple other then the USA (below 18,000 for high performance VFR) lights were out at 10,000. With regards to vibration very little and it sounds like a mountain out of a mole hill as it pays to be visible.....
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Baad habit, baad CRM - flicking switches.
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NAVIGATION LIGHTS AS I ORIGINALLY POSTED
I personally agree with Metro man…. And that’s right, it goes nicely with the transponder selection.
The initial question that I posted was not to discuss the SOPs, they are there for a reason, just to know about how do you or your company are using the NAVIGATION LIGHTS, their use, is not described in the Standard Operation Procedures, and we have to use them every day.
The use of the navigation lights, without control or procedure, does not help us or the maintenance department to prevent future bulbs/Leds failures, or if the use of those navigation lights, always in the same fixed position will end, until we found a “dead bulb” and we are forced to switch it to the other system, so we [maintenance and the crew] are complete sure that we drained up to the last drop of light, on that component.
By the other hand, let me post a comment about the use of TAKE OFF LIGHTS [as posted by the some participants] I know that fuel it’s important and we have to save the natural resources, but above everything, SAFE IT’S THE MAIN REASON why all of us are still here. SEE AND BE SEEN it’s [and should be] the most important issue, and it do not depends on the airport traffic nor the personal idea.
Each airplane model has its “pros and contras” and they surely have been taking into account when the cost index has been analyzed by the Company. Itīs their concern, mine itīs safety.
I personally agree with Metro man…. And that’s right, it goes nicely with the transponder selection.
The initial question that I posted was not to discuss the SOPs, they are there for a reason, just to know about how do you or your company are using the NAVIGATION LIGHTS, their use, is not described in the Standard Operation Procedures, and we have to use them every day.
The use of the navigation lights, without control or procedure, does not help us or the maintenance department to prevent future bulbs/Leds failures, or if the use of those navigation lights, always in the same fixed position will end, until we found a “dead bulb” and we are forced to switch it to the other system, so we [maintenance and the crew] are complete sure that we drained up to the last drop of light, on that component.
By the other hand, let me post a comment about the use of TAKE OFF LIGHTS [as posted by the some participants] I know that fuel it’s important and we have to save the natural resources, but above everything, SAFE IT’S THE MAIN REASON why all of us are still here. SEE AND BE SEEN it’s [and should be] the most important issue, and it do not depends on the airport traffic nor the personal idea.
Each airplane model has its “pros and contras” and they surely have been taking into account when the cost index has been analyzed by the Company. Itīs their concern, mine itīs safety.
Last edited by a320carlos; 13th Aug 2017 at 18:49.
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]#1 if the Captain is flying, #2 if the F/O is flying
Only half a speed-brake
Would be good. What's your FCOM date / issue? Here's ours, recently updated.
PRO-NOR-SOP-06-A-00011160.0001001 / 05 JAN 15
EXTERIOR LIGHTS
STROBE sw..................................................AUTO
BEACON sw..................................................OFF
REMAINING EXTERIOR LIGHTS.......................AS RQRD
PRO-NOR-SOP-06-A-00011160.0001001 / 05 JAN 15
EXTERIOR LIGHTS
STROBE sw..................................................AUTO
BEACON sw..................................................OFF
REMAINING EXTERIOR LIGHTS.......................AS RQRD