737 800 fan blades and icy tail.
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So I have checked the company training documentation, FCOM and a video produced by Boeing on how to conduct the preflight inspection and none say you should rotate the fan.
Just that he didn't think it was safe or necessary to check
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OP:
Even cadets know that you should check the back of the fans for icing in winter conditions. The ONLY way to do so is by tactile check. ( most fan icing is clear ice, as you as trainer undoubtly know).
What that TRE told you is not only rubbish ('causing damage?!), he is telling you something to omit which can cause serious consequences to the safety of the aircraft and operation.
Even cadets know that you should check the back of the fans for icing in winter conditions. The ONLY way to do so is by tactile check. ( most fan icing is clear ice, as you as trainer undoubtly know).
What that TRE told you is not only rubbish ('causing damage?!), he is telling you something to omit which can cause serious consequences to the safety of the aircraft and operation.
The hand rotating of the fan is someone's genius idea that is not supported by the manufacturer of the engine or the airframes (airbus or Boeing)
Nowhere will you find a procedure that says grab the fan and give it a whirl on the walk around.
As someone rightly pointed out it can't be such a big issue because it can't be done on the bigger engines that you can't reach or on the cfm56 (or any other engine you can reach) when there is a breeze and the fan is windmilling.
Fill your boots if that gives you a warm and fuzzy but don't label as dangerous or irresponsible (or fat!) those that don't agree with this home made procedure.
Nowhere will you find a procedure that says grab the fan and give it a whirl on the walk around.
As someone rightly pointed out it can't be such a big issue because it can't be done on the bigger engines that you can't reach or on the cfm56 (or any other engine you can reach) when there is a breeze and the fan is windmilling.
Fill your boots if that gives you a warm and fuzzy but don't label as dangerous or irresponsible (or fat!) those that don't agree with this home made procedure.
I would be far more concerned for them to look through the fan at the stationary core vanes but that task again is up to the installer based on experience with type and operation (the when part).
I trying not to infer what is required, but only what to look for if you care to look
I trying not to infer what is required, but only what to look for if you care to look
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So, in other words, because something cannot be checked SOMETIMES, it shouldn't be checked EVER? Or, because something can't be checked on SOME aircraft, it shouldn't be checked on ANY?
Not at all, if it is your thing to check it go for your life but dont criticise people who don't do it or who don't see the value in it.
If it was a safety critical issue it would be in the manufacturer's documentation.
It isn't so it is clearly something that someone (not the manufacturer) has decided is a good idea. It may well be a good idea, but if the manufacturer, who has some experience in cold weather operations, doesn't think it is of such critical importance, then perhaps it is a nice to do not a must do.
I have never done it on any of the jet types I have flown, never seen any suggestions to do it, and I have flown across Europe, North America and Asia. Doesn't mean I know it all, but never seen it mentioned.
Things tend to take on a life of their own and become "safety critical" when in fact they are just the product of someone deciding that they reckon it is a good idea. All of a sudden if you don't do it, you don't know what you are doing "because even cadets know to check...."
If it was a safety critical issue it would be in the manufacturer's documentation.
It isn't so it is clearly something that someone (not the manufacturer) has decided is a good idea. It may well be a good idea, but if the manufacturer, who has some experience in cold weather operations, doesn't think it is of such critical importance, then perhaps it is a nice to do not a must do.
I have never done it on any of the jet types I have flown, never seen any suggestions to do it, and I have flown across Europe, North America and Asia. Doesn't mean I know it all, but never seen it mentioned.
Things tend to take on a life of their own and become "safety critical" when in fact they are just the product of someone deciding that they reckon it is a good idea. All of a sudden if you don't do it, you don't know what you are doing "because even cadets know to check...."
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Our company (Airbus) walkaround video shows the chap physically rotating the fan blades with the audio stating to check that the blades are ice free and rotating freely, although it doesn't spell out in the FCOM as to 'how' you check the fan, just that it should be checked.
Snakecharma, your assessment does make a lot of sense, even if it's somehow made its way into one of our company videos!
Snakecharma, your assessment does make a lot of sense, even if it's somehow made its way into one of our company videos!
I admit I have not looked at a 320 fcom as I have not flown a 320 so my brave pronouncement may well be just that, brave! Nevertheless I have not seen it in the 737, 777, 330, and sundry smaller jets. Doesn't mean it isn't there just not seen it.
I tend to pay as much or more attention to the back of the engine as I can see the back of the fan blades and into the back of the engine,where looking in through the front isn't as easy.
All I was getting at is that this "procedure" isn't as universally accepted as perhaps some think and don't look down on those that don't accept it as a gospel truth.
I tend to pay as much or more attention to the back of the engine as I can see the back of the fan blades and into the back of the engine,where looking in through the front isn't as easy.
All I was getting at is that this "procedure" isn't as universally accepted as perhaps some think and don't look down on those that don't accept it as a gospel truth.
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Walk arround or run arround.
I have found a few interesting things on walk arrounds that i am glad that i did not take of with.
We should start a new thread and see who has the best, worst story.
Nevermind.
The question was about the 787-800 and its thrusted CFM 56. ( What does CFM stand for by the way, and yes i do know, but do you. Ardwarg is at the core of the answer if i am not mistaken.)
1
Birds, any small feathers stuck to the fan indicates a birdstrike, and if on the inner part , has gone into the core.
This you can not see from the back, and also you can better see the core statorvans .
2
The 800 is very low and sucks gravel like a ......... Hoover.
I rotate the fan and look for damage to the leading edge,, etc.
Lastly, why in the name of Odin would i fly this bastard aircraft, born the same year as me , WITHOUT giving the two good engines a good check/look
when i CAN!!??
Oh , and i still have all my fingers, done to much carpentry to put them in rotating things.
By the way centermounted engines never suck gravel and birds.
The new thing is that we are going to start using common sence ,
I dont depart for a 6hr flight with a 78 ton A/C and 26k thrust and just give the engines glance : Cause they sounded fine on the way up here!!??
Anyway,
How do you get ride of ice on the fan if there is any?
You may find the answer counter intuitive.
Next thread
Why does he kick the tire?
Cpt B
We should start a new thread and see who has the best, worst story.
Nevermind.
The question was about the 787-800 and its thrusted CFM 56. ( What does CFM stand for by the way, and yes i do know, but do you. Ardwarg is at the core of the answer if i am not mistaken.)
1
Birds, any small feathers stuck to the fan indicates a birdstrike, and if on the inner part , has gone into the core.
This you can not see from the back, and also you can better see the core statorvans .
2
The 800 is very low and sucks gravel like a ......... Hoover.
I rotate the fan and look for damage to the leading edge,, etc.
Lastly, why in the name of Odin would i fly this bastard aircraft, born the same year as me , WITHOUT giving the two good engines a good check/look
when i CAN!!??
Oh , and i still have all my fingers, done to much carpentry to put them in rotating things.
By the way centermounted engines never suck gravel and birds.
The new thing is that we are going to start using common sence ,
I dont depart for a 6hr flight with a 78 ton A/C and 26k thrust and just give the engines glance : Cause they sounded fine on the way up here!!??
Anyway,
How do you get ride of ice on the fan if there is any?
You may find the answer counter intuitive.
Next thread
Why does he kick the tire?
Cpt B
How do you get ride of ice on the fan if there is any?
You may find the answer counter intuitive.
You may find the answer counter intuitive.
If it was inflight the signatures are vibration and there are published procedures for spooling up the engine to centrifuge it 0ff.
If it is there in walk-arrounds then call a mechanic and he may remove it with a heat source.
Just remember that if you use spoolups, they have to be high enough to actually dislodge the ice and they have to be often enough that the shed itself is small and won't damage the engine when it bounces off the cases
How Engineering Works
Harmless tests with a vague purpose are often deemed pointless, don't do it...
...right up until that one occasion where a significant problem is found because someone was doing it anyway.
Besides, I don't think anyone with an ounce of mechanical sympathy would ever tire of setting in motion such a great hunk of metal that's so nicely made and turns so smoothly.
I can remember seeing a Cathy pilot, a few decades ago in Taipei, doing just this prior to our onwards leg to HK. Not that we'd noticed but apparently something feathered had gone into No.2 (747-200 I recall) on departure from Fukuoka (or approach to Taipei), and we weren't going anywhere until he was satisfied that all was basically well.
...right up until that one occasion where a significant problem is found because someone was doing it anyway.
Besides, I don't think anyone with an ounce of mechanical sympathy would ever tire of setting in motion such a great hunk of metal that's so nicely made and turns so smoothly.
I can remember seeing a Cathy pilot, a few decades ago in Taipei, doing just this prior to our onwards leg to HK. Not that we'd noticed but apparently something feathered had gone into No.2 (747-200 I recall) on departure from Fukuoka (or approach to Taipei), and we weren't going anywhere until he was satisfied that all was basically well.
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There is a big difference between 'it's not necessary to do that." & "Do not do that." In the former it is your choice if you want to spend time, cover your back-side, have fun, feel superior etc. etc. In the latter....clear & simple.
For AB guy; it would seem odd to have an FCOM/video telling you to hand spin the engine on an AB and not to do so on the very same engine on a B737. Surely it is an engine thing not an aeroplane thing.
I was taught to do it on PW JT-8's, first flight of the day, especially in winter. It could have been sitting out there for a few days in freezing conditions. And why not? 2 secs of hands on and bonding with your engines. Give the spinner cone a kiss if you can reach it. Hug the radar dome on a TS day: whatever floats your boat. None of it is a "Do Not."
For the engine spinners: do you do it forwards or backwards? Let's get to the important nub of the matter.
For AB guy; it would seem odd to have an FCOM/video telling you to hand spin the engine on an AB and not to do so on the very same engine on a B737. Surely it is an engine thing not an aeroplane thing.
I was taught to do it on PW JT-8's, first flight of the day, especially in winter. It could have been sitting out there for a few days in freezing conditions. And why not? 2 secs of hands on and bonding with your engines. Give the spinner cone a kiss if you can reach it. Hug the radar dome on a TS day: whatever floats your boat. None of it is a "Do Not."
For the engine spinners: do you do it forwards or backwards? Let's get to the important nub of the matter.
Last edited by RAT 5; 22nd Jan 2017 at 10:53.
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Besides, I don't think anyone with an ounce of mechanical sympathy would ever tire of setting in motion such a great hunk of metal that's so nicely made and turns so smoothly.
I am with RAT5, I may do it on a first flight after a cold night or when ice can be suspected. Not as the norm on any turnaround just because I can..
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Remove ice on CFM 56 on turnaround.
Ice picked up on approach and or taxi in is often easy to remove the following way. And Yes you may look like a nutty Cpt but it works:
Do the tecklog, get Jr to do the setup and jump out before the engines cool down.
Spin the fan counter clockwise after finding ice on the backside of the blade.
So backwards of normal spin, this draws hot air forward and starts melting the ice. Remember to do both alternatley and fairly fast.
Then remove all slush and check all 24 before blasting of to warmer destination.
This can save You delay , when slots are hot and temp is not!
Has worked from +1 down to -10 for me.
If airport is good they have plenty heaters, but why bother when you can do it yourself. You have a slot arrived 7 min early on a standard 25 min turnarround.
Cabin need waste and water, a few lift offs, at remote parking , with bussed Pax, and remoter deice if needed on a friday afternoon two sectors and a 12hrs duty day. And a slight case of homengitis Catastroficus and 5 hrs of sleep on day 5.
Hey, lets turn this moneymaker in the right direction.
SAFELY .
Gone Fishing
Cpt B
Do the tecklog, get Jr to do the setup and jump out before the engines cool down.
Spin the fan counter clockwise after finding ice on the backside of the blade.
So backwards of normal spin, this draws hot air forward and starts melting the ice. Remember to do both alternatley and fairly fast.
Then remove all slush and check all 24 before blasting of to warmer destination.
This can save You delay , when slots are hot and temp is not!
Has worked from +1 down to -10 for me.
If airport is good they have plenty heaters, but why bother when you can do it yourself. You have a slot arrived 7 min early on a standard 25 min turnarround.
Cabin need waste and water, a few lift offs, at remote parking , with bussed Pax, and remoter deice if needed on a friday afternoon two sectors and a 12hrs duty day. And a slight case of homengitis Catastroficus and 5 hrs of sleep on day 5.
Hey, lets turn this moneymaker in the right direction.
SAFELY .
Gone Fishing
Cpt B
Good tip. Does it remove all the ice? I'm just wondering how it melts the ice on the fan outer edges.
Can't see this working on the bigger fans but its worth a go I suppose when no heaters are available.
Can't see this working on the bigger fans but its worth a go I suppose when no heaters are available.
So backwards of normal spin, this draws hot air forward and starts melting the ice
I wonder what Barit 1 and TD have to say about this ?