A320 immediate return
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A320 immediate return
Hello colleagues,
how would you handle the cockpit workload in an immediate return to a runway?
V1 Eng Fire, ECAM Actions complete, fire persists. Checklists, NITES brief, approach brief, flight plan sequence,
Thanks.
how would you handle the cockpit workload in an immediate return to a runway?
V1 Eng Fire, ECAM Actions complete, fire persists. Checklists, NITES brief, approach brief, flight plan sequence,
Thanks.
What's the E stand for?
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Will an admin please contact me via email to [email protected] ? I want to know why you are blocking/deleting my posts.
Thank you,
Thank you,
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Will an admin please contact me at [email protected] please ? I want to know why my posts are being blocked/deleted and why I cannot access my inbox.
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Fastest return is either a visual circuit or a reciprocal procedure turn.
Visual Circuit: If continuing fire at 1500', take control/announce intention, push to level, F1/set MCT/activate approach phase (option to SEL higher SPD), turn DW/activate secondary, continue ECAM, stop at STS, after T/O CLB c/l, brief brief, NITS done as PA (if no time, phone CM/CC first if time), read STS, ECAM actions complete, mention QRH c/l and after LDG intentions, F2/turn base...
Reciprocal: Might have to climb higher if in IMC to self position for IAP, would start procedure turn about STS page.
That ticks all the boxes, but all you need to do is 1) try and put out fire, 2) not hit anything, 3) put the gear down, and 4) stop before the end of the runway.
Visual Circuit: If continuing fire at 1500', take control/announce intention, push to level, F1/set MCT/activate approach phase (option to SEL higher SPD), turn DW/activate secondary, continue ECAM, stop at STS, after T/O CLB c/l, brief brief, NITS done as PA (if no time, phone CM/CC first if time), read STS, ECAM actions complete, mention QRH c/l and after LDG intentions, F2/turn base...
Reciprocal: Might have to climb higher if in IMC to self position for IAP, would start procedure turn about STS page.
That ticks all the boxes, but all you need to do is 1) try and put out fire, 2) not hit anything, 3) put the gear down, and 4) stop before the end of the runway.
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MD and Lancer
If fire persists means you have fired both the agents and may be at about 1000ft.AGL. ECAM would not be complete and there is nothing in ECAM/STS for fire remaining so the rest of the ECAM is useless and there is no other way to put out the fire. The situation is even more time limiting than Hudson landing. So all the luxuries of decision making tool are not available. A320 can be flown in select modes without any sophistications. Off course tell PM your intention who in turn should inform ATC and very briefly crew and passengers what they are expected to do and return to help PF. The only procedure you need is On Ground Emergency Evacuation. In VMC turn downwind descending to circling approach minima maintaining Take off Configuration and towards end of downwind take the gear down and in final turn flaps to full and land. Use full reverse till complete stop. Then carry out an evacuation.
If fire persists means you have fired both the agents and may be at about 1000ft.AGL. ECAM would not be complete and there is nothing in ECAM/STS for fire remaining so the rest of the ECAM is useless and there is no other way to put out the fire. The situation is even more time limiting than Hudson landing. So all the luxuries of decision making tool are not available. A320 can be flown in select modes without any sophistications. Off course tell PM your intention who in turn should inform ATC and very briefly crew and passengers what they are expected to do and return to help PF. The only procedure you need is On Ground Emergency Evacuation. In VMC turn downwind descending to circling approach minima maintaining Take off Configuration and towards end of downwind take the gear down and in final turn flaps to full and land. Use full reverse till complete stop. Then carry out an evacuation.
Last edited by vilas; 18th Jun 2016 at 11:39.
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Sure vilas, like I indicated in my last paragraph.
But if you're full-bore on how to complete everything, you're in a much better position to cut bits as required when it gets really nasty. It's quite possible to run everything flying a 1000'/230 kt circuit, and still have spare time. Level of support tends to be the limiting factor.
Startle factor, actual problem, and presence/absence of supporting indicators are also considerations as to when the immediate return decision is made.
But if you're full-bore on how to complete everything, you're in a much better position to cut bits as required when it gets really nasty. It's quite possible to run everything flying a 1000'/230 kt circuit, and still have spare time. Level of support tends to be the limiting factor.
Startle factor, actual problem, and presence/absence of supporting indicators are also considerations as to when the immediate return decision is made.
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It depends on the situation.
In VMC if fire not out: I would tell the PM to continue to work the appropriate ECAM/QRH as appropriate. I would turn downwind manage speed appropriately to set up for the fastest (stable) circuit possible. As the airplane is doing that I would change the destination (time permitting) throw in the approach into MCDU for reference on final, activate the approach, time permitting make a quick PA, manage speed appropriately to set up for a 2 mile final or so, abeam the threshold AP/FD off and set up for a tight base to final, planning flap full, MED auto brake and full reverse. Come to a stop and set the park brake. If fire is still going on with secondary confirmation (ATC/Fire Truck/out window etc) I would go into the checklist - pax evac.
In IMC essentially the same thing. As PF I would fly the airplane and set myself up for a successful approach. Ask to get vectored onto the approach at the lowest (closest) altitude possible from ATC. I would fly the airplane and navigate it while having PM take care of the extra bit. Otherwise similar to the VMC.
Whenever I fly I generally always think about this situation. I would always brief (even though not required by SOP) which runway is our best option in the event of a quick return (fire type scenario).. Basically discussing the longest into wind/open runway (may have other factors like the approach available etc). Anything else you have time to climb up to a safe altitude and decide what you're going to do.
Another technique that I use, when it's actually IMC/clouds below MSA if I do not need the SEC flight plan for an engine failure procedure or something else I will plug in the routing only for the emergency return I would like. That was if need by the inbound section is all ready to go to help me navigate to it.
In VMC if fire not out: I would tell the PM to continue to work the appropriate ECAM/QRH as appropriate. I would turn downwind manage speed appropriately to set up for the fastest (stable) circuit possible. As the airplane is doing that I would change the destination (time permitting) throw in the approach into MCDU for reference on final, activate the approach, time permitting make a quick PA, manage speed appropriately to set up for a 2 mile final or so, abeam the threshold AP/FD off and set up for a tight base to final, planning flap full, MED auto brake and full reverse. Come to a stop and set the park brake. If fire is still going on with secondary confirmation (ATC/Fire Truck/out window etc) I would go into the checklist - pax evac.
In IMC essentially the same thing. As PF I would fly the airplane and set myself up for a successful approach. Ask to get vectored onto the approach at the lowest (closest) altitude possible from ATC. I would fly the airplane and navigate it while having PM take care of the extra bit. Otherwise similar to the VMC.
Whenever I fly I generally always think about this situation. I would always brief (even though not required by SOP) which runway is our best option in the event of a quick return (fire type scenario).. Basically discussing the longest into wind/open runway (may have other factors like the approach available etc). Anything else you have time to climb up to a safe altitude and decide what you're going to do.
Another technique that I use, when it's actually IMC/clouds below MSA if I do not need the SEC flight plan for an engine failure procedure or something else I will plug in the routing only for the emergency return I would like. That was if need by the inbound section is all ready to go to help me navigate to it.
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For fire that will not go out,
1, If vmc remain in vmc, if at least 1000 ft ceiling and 2 miles, do not climb into cloud.
2, turn to downwind and complete approach visually, hand flown, FD off, no loc or gs needed. run no checklist except landing check, then evac check on runway when stopped.
If imc, declare, turn now to airfield, make PA announce, run pertinent QRH until 3mile final, then same as above, do not dilly dally in air to finish QRH, stop on runway, evac checklist.
1, If vmc remain in vmc, if at least 1000 ft ceiling and 2 miles, do not climb into cloud.
2, turn to downwind and complete approach visually, hand flown, FD off, no loc or gs needed. run no checklist except landing check, then evac check on runway when stopped.
If imc, declare, turn now to airfield, make PA announce, run pertinent QRH until 3mile final, then same as above, do not dilly dally in air to finish QRH, stop on runway, evac checklist.
This is also why 30 seconds prior to departure setting up the approach to return to your runway of choice and confirming landing distance margin if overweight is time not wasted. If an instrument approach is needed, 4 button presses on the FMGC activates the Secondary and the approach phase.
You should have discussed how to handle an emergency of this nature with your colleague prior to departure and be executing a pre-agreed plan rather than making it up on the go. A lot easier at 0 kts/1 g with no adrenaline in the system!
You should have discussed how to handle an emergency of this nature with your colleague prior to departure and be executing a pre-agreed plan rather than making it up on the go. A lot easier at 0 kts/1 g with no adrenaline in the system!
Yet, from FCTM PURPOSE:
The FCTM provides the flight crew with:
‐ The general Airbus operational philosophy (e.g. design and utilization principles, golden rules for pilots)
‐ Additional information to the FCOM procedures (the “why" to do and the “how" to do)
‐ Best practices, operating techniques on maneuvers, and handling
‐ Information on situational awareness.
Basically, it depends on the scenario...
Last edited by Rico_Corp; 8th Jan 2024 at 10:39.
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unfortunately it is impossible to come up with a clear cut answer because everything will depend on how the event unfolds.
The most important aspect to consider is, first of all, the surprise & startle effect. Consider that the exposure we do get to this massively important element is quite limited as 1) airplanes nowadays generally suffer only minor failures, if any and 2) training surprise & startle in the SIM is virtually impossibile as any time you head to the SIM you know there will be lots of action, which basically degrades the surprise element. So as pilots we need first of all to cope with emotions only partly experienced in SIM sessions and this will have a certain impact on how we do things in real life, when there is no ready made solution available. A great example of that is the Sully event.
The second aspect to consider is that your proposed scenario can have tons of variables.
Are we talking about a takeoff on a cavok/wind calm day out of a sea level airport with 2 x 4000m runways? Is it a max crosswind takeoff out of a Greek short field Island above MLW with chances of wind shear? Is it a LVTO with real CAT III ops out of an area where the takeoff alternate is 30 min away? Also, do we have a ready-made solution? For example, we all have spent the last 20-30 years or so doing V1 cuts with and without fire. If You get an "LPC like" engine failure in real life you have a ready made solution, i.e. do what you did to get your license signed. If we do get something different though, a severe birdstrike followed by and engine failure and fire just by the time we start the clean up, with the PM talking on the radio asking to avoid WX, then we need to create a solution that is not out of the shelf anymore. All of those aspects are nowadays deeply addressed in competencies based training, as we do appreciate the fact that we know how to deal with V1 cuts and that real life ops evidence shows that V1 cuts are very unlikely. Basically we are very well trained to do something that is very unlikely to happen as it happens during the LPC but we do lack more training on what is more likely to happen according to the statistics.
Also, coming back to your question, your operator should have established procedures for unforeseen emergencies in terms of cabin crew training and calls from cockpit to cabin and vice-versa. It's basically a call You make over the PA which advises the cabin that there will be a return to field very shortly leading to an evacuation and you don't have time to do more talking.
Hope this helps for some brainstorming
In Real Life™ outside the simulator it is exceedingly unlikely that you will encounter a persistent airborne engine fire which has survived a correctly executed drill. Boeing state that they do not know of such a case and the engines they use are common with many Airbus. More likely is persistent smoke/fire/fumes inside the aircraft, which is a greater issue than the same thing happening to something hanging off the wing.
There is some really good advice above about spending a few quiet moments before departure thinking about expedited and emergency returns, and more importantly, discussing HOW to do them as a crew. This saves time and uncertainty, not to mention reduces the effect of startle. Bear in mind in the worst case (and that’s why you’re going back straight away), you may have masks on and reduced visibility, so CRM becomes an order of magnitude more difficult. At that point, falling back to a pre-briefed scenario that can be modified if necessary saves trying to work it up from first principles.
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"Set the thrust levers to MCT when the LVR MCT message flashes on the FMA (this message appears, when the speed index reaches green dot). Resume the climb phase with THR MCT. If the thrust levers are already in the FLX/MCT detent, move the thrust levers to CL and then back to MCT." (FCTM-PR-AEP-ENG)
Yet, from FCTM PURPOSE:
The FCTM provides the flight crew with:
‐ The general Airbus operational philosophy (e.g. design and utilization principles, golden rules for pilots)
‐ Additional information to the FCOM procedures (the “why" to do and the “how" to do)
‐ Best practices, operating techniques on maneuvers, and handling
‐ Information on situational awareness.
Basically, it depends on the scenario...
Yet, from FCTM PURPOSE:
The FCTM provides the flight crew with:
‐ The general Airbus operational philosophy (e.g. design and utilization principles, golden rules for pilots)
‐ Additional information to the FCOM procedures (the “why" to do and the “how" to do)
‐ Best practices, operating techniques on maneuvers, and handling
‐ Information on situational awareness.
Basically, it depends on the scenario...
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“Correctly executed” being the important phrase.
There was an article on the Safety First app from Airbus in May ‘22 where delayed application of a fire drill on a A330 resulted in reignition after both bottles had been discharged, so the possibility of a fire after a drill has been carried out does exist.
Details below copied from the article, in the interests of sharing safety information. All copyright belongs the Airbus.
Really worth reading the whole thing, but there isn’t an easy way to link to it. I’d recommend the app!
An A330 aircraft departed for a long-range flight. The aircraft was in CONF 2 for the takeoff. The takeoff roll was normal, but the ENG 2 FIRE red ECAM alert triggered (T0) 17 s after liftoff. The flight crew continued the climb. The engine display showed stable engine parameters for both engines.
At T0 + 51 s, the aircraft reached 2 400 ft RA. The PF set the engine 2 thrust lever to IDLE and pushed the engine 1 thrust lever to TOGA.
At T0 + 52 s, the PF set the engine 1 thrust lever to MCT and this caused the autothrust to engage in thrust mode.
At T0 + 2 min 27 s, the flight crew set the engine 2 master lever to OFF.
At T0 + 2 min 43 s, the flight crew pressed the ENG FIRE pushbutton and discharged AGENT 1 followed by AGENT 2. The ENG 2 FIRE alert remained after both agents were discharged.
At T0 + 3 min 38 s, the flight crew engaged the autopilot and leveled off the aircraft at 7 000 ft.
At T0 + 6 min 31 s, the flight crew started the APU, which provided the electrical power supply to the right side.
At T0 + 9 min 39 s, the EGT indication for engine 2 started to increase, even though it had shown decreasing EGT from the time when the engine 2 master lever was set to OFF.
At T0 + 10 min 03 s, the ENG 2 FIRE alert stopped and the ENG 2 FIRE DET FAULT amber ECAM alert triggered.
At T0 + 11 min 23 s, the ENG 2 EGT OVERLIMIT amber ECAM alert triggered when engine 2 EGT reached 600 °C.
At T0 + 15 min 09 s, the engine 2 N1 value became invalid.
At T0 + 17 min 35 s, the engine 2 EGT reached a peak value of 801 °C.
At T0 + 25 min 02 s, the aircraft touched down on the runway and safely came to a stop. Smoke and flames coming from engine 2 were seen. The fire brigade arrived and extinguished the fire.
