PAPI guidance below 300 ft
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[I]Are you telling me that you can't accurately land your aircraft visually without glide slope information? Astonishing...[I]
There are many pilots who can't and one reason is some airlines don't allow them to.
There are many pilots who can't and one reason is some airlines don't allow them to.
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Astonishes me that anyone allowed to fly an airliner feels it necessary to be some sort of hero to fly a visual approach. Or accuse someone one that can of heroics (I think it was basically intended to make me look stupid..)
I'm starting a new club.
It's called the
"I can confidently hand fly my aeroplane in any phase of flight and I can also fly a visual approach" club.
If you can't be a member of that club, what the bloody hell are you doing driving an airliner!!
I'm starting a new club.
It's called the
"I can confidently hand fly my aeroplane in any phase of flight and I can also fly a visual approach" club.
If you can't be a member of that club, what the bloody hell are you doing driving an airliner!!
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When I got checked out in my first 'wide Body', the rad alt was u/s in base training.
People now need it to flare a 320. And they think it is required. Instead of learning how to land, they try to find the answer in SOP`s, or PPRUNE.
Jeeeeez.
People now need it to flare a 320. And they think it is required. Instead of learning how to land, they try to find the answer in SOP`s, or PPRUNE.
Jeeeeez.
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Many of us are now realising what unsung 'heros' we have been - and still are.
As some of my English 'in-laws' would say,
Makes yer chest swell with pride, dunnit, Dolly?
Will there be a medal presentation at ye olde palace soon?
As some of my English 'in-laws' would say,
Makes yer chest swell with pride, dunnit, Dolly?
Will there be a medal presentation at ye olde palace soon?
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smoothing the bumps
The real value of approach systems is giving the pilot a straight line to establish a steady approach speed and descent rate, and the last few hundred feet should be a continuation of the aforesaid straight line....almost.
I have been a spare pair of eyes during training details, and have been amused at the deviations from the norm... using glider pilot reference point techniques, I have been convinced that the driver was heading for the underground option.
Putting all the approach lights in one box can give unexpected results... the Barkston Heath boxes had to be realigned after they were used as spectator terracing during the National Model Flying Championships. I learnt a lot about grovelling. Should have got someone else to sign for the airfield.
P.S. - Station Commander wanted the little oil spots removed from the runway after the event... ever scrubbed a runway???? !!!
I have been a spare pair of eyes during training details, and have been amused at the deviations from the norm... using glider pilot reference point techniques, I have been convinced that the driver was heading for the underground option.
Putting all the approach lights in one box can give unexpected results... the Barkston Heath boxes had to be realigned after they were used as spectator terracing during the National Model Flying Championships. I learnt a lot about grovelling. Should have got someone else to sign for the airfield.
P.S. - Station Commander wanted the little oil spots removed from the runway after the event... ever scrubbed a runway???? !!!
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I seem to remember seeing white white red white at an airfield in Africa once - Uyo just after it opened. What's the plan then eh? Amusingly, I had the Nigerian aviation minister in the back who was going there for a backhander, I mean opening ceremony.
This example was cheating - we had been warned that no approach aids were serviceable by phone before we went.
This example was cheating - we had been warned that no approach aids were serviceable by phone before we went.
Last edited by tommoutrie; 27th Jun 2015 at 21:37. Reason: Adding detail
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well, Glen, I dunno... I've had difficulty adjusting my eyeline from K8/K13/K21 arse on ground to Rollason Condor arse at potty height....
I could probably manage a circuit in a glider from cockpit elevation of a large jet at touchdown....
So if there is a machine that can do a better job, I'd use it.
I could probably manage a circuit in a glider from cockpit elevation of a large jet at touchdown....
So if there is a machine that can do a better job, I'd use it.
Last edited by DeafOldFart; 27th Jun 2015 at 21:48. Reason: tpo
I think you might all be misinterpreting Bloggs' "hero visual approach" comment. I'm pretty sure Bloggs flies for an outfit where visual approaches are common as many places in Australia don't have an ILS at all. Not all visual approaches a "hero visual approaches", one where you suddenly and unexpectedly find yourself with 4 reds or 4 whites on the PAPI might be though.
I do visual approaches into an airfield with horrible PAPIs every week. The sun sets right off the end of the runway. Never found myself with 4 whites or reds though. With experience you know roughly how high you should be through the approach.
If you are on an ILS you just use the ILS G/S and accept the three reds on the PAPI.
I do visual approaches into an airfield with horrible PAPIs every week. The sun sets right off the end of the runway. Never found myself with 4 whites or reds though. With experience you know roughly how high you should be through the approach.
If you are on an ILS you just use the ILS G/S and accept the three reds on the PAPI.
I am reminded by tommoutrie of The PAPIs at Lamezia - coming in off a VOR approach one can get 2W/2R on one side, and 3R/1W on the other.
Into a black hole surrounded by high terrain too - consult with your colleague and go for the ones you feel make sense.
Into a black hole surrounded by high terrain too - consult with your colleague and go for the ones you feel make sense.
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consult with your colleague and go for the ones you feel make sense.
In today's cadet world you might not get the answer you were expecting. They might go with the 'take the worse' option = 3R and call a G/A on you at 500'. Their experience is less than yours and they have been brain washed into 'advocacy' and don't let the old fart in LHS kill you.
But I do remember the days in Canaries where there were left & right T VASIS and showing different. Firstly I've never found out why there are 2 sets, and secondly, when the ILS was alive, why any at all, especially as neither on them showed us on path, but the G/P did. Interesting lessons.
Why was night time base training removed, and no glide path approaches also? If this was an XAA edict then they are culpable of contributing to the dump down training.
In today's cadet world you might not get the answer you were expecting. They might go with the 'take the worse' option = 3R and call a G/A on you at 500'. Their experience is less than yours and they have been brain washed into 'advocacy' and don't let the old fart in LHS kill you.
But I do remember the days in Canaries where there were left & right T VASIS and showing different. Firstly I've never found out why there are 2 sets, and secondly, when the ILS was alive, why any at all, especially as neither on them showed us on path, but the G/P did. Interesting lessons.
Why was night time base training removed, and no glide path approaches also? If this was an XAA edict then they are culpable of contributing to the dump down training.
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Nah.. I'm pretty sure the use of "hero" was a substitute for "reckless" and intended to ridicule.
Well let's just clear up another couple of points he's raised. From a non precision approach it's very likely you will break cloud with four reds. That's the way they were originally designed. That's exactly what they are for - establishing after an NDB cloud break or similar. But bloggs is so used to coupling up his overplayed GPS approach he's forgotten that..
And what on earth is a no slope guidance approach qualification? I've never heard of it.
Just hacked off with having my profession continuously degraded by all this bull****. The authority I'm under want to individually qualify us for each individual LPV approach we fly. I've got 550 airports in my logbook! How's that gonna work?
( probably doing a visual later today. Really hope it works out... Will get posthumously prune crucified otherwise)
Well let's just clear up another couple of points he's raised. From a non precision approach it's very likely you will break cloud with four reds. That's the way they were originally designed. That's exactly what they are for - establishing after an NDB cloud break or similar. But bloggs is so used to coupling up his overplayed GPS approach he's forgotten that..
And what on earth is a no slope guidance approach qualification? I've never heard of it.
Just hacked off with having my profession continuously degraded by all this bull****. The authority I'm under want to individually qualify us for each individual LPV approach we fly. I've got 550 airports in my logbook! How's that gonna work?
( probably doing a visual later today. Really hope it works out... Will get posthumously prune crucified otherwise)
Well let's just clear up another couple of points he's raised. From a non precision approach it's very likely you will break cloud with four reds. That's the way they were originally designed. That's exactly what they are for - establishing after an NDB cloud break or similar. But bloggs is so used to coupling up his overplayed GPS approach he's forgotten that..
And what on earth is a no slope guidance approach qualification? I've never heard of it.
Just hacked off with having my profession continuously degraded by all this bull****. The authority I'm under want to individually qualify us for each individual LPV approach we fly. I've got 550 airports in my logbook! How's that gonna work?
( probably doing a visual later today. Really hope it works out... Will get posthumously prune crucified otherwise)
.
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By continually eroding the skills of pilots, which is exactly what this is an example of, the authorities are reducing pilots available capacity to cope with emergencies and unusual situations. By creating the situation where pilots believe it requires special abilities to land by looking at the runway, the wind, the close in terrain etc, you make it impossible for pilots to have the skill set to cope when things go wrong. The Gimli glider becomes a crash, U.S.1549 crashes short of Teterborough, Speedbird 038 piles into the bypass close to Heathrow. The reason so many pilots struggle to hand fly now is because they aren't allowed to. I'm lucky, I use the autopilot when I want, I choose whether I fancy a visual, I use any mode I feel like to climb or descend, nobody bitches at me if I hand fly an ILS (which I regularly do, IMC or VMC because I like it) and as a result I know I have a decent toolkit should things go wrong.
Make no mistake, the bull**** going on in our industry directly caused asiana airlines 214. It, and other incidents like it, need to be attributed directly to the rules and regulations put in place by authorities and airlines. The improved reliability of the machinery we operate is what is mainly responsible for generally improving safety in aviation, not the application of more and more restrictive operating practices.
Good luck down there with your blinkered regulators. Must be tough to fly an approach at all when you're upside down to start with..
Out
Make no mistake, the bull**** going on in our industry directly caused asiana airlines 214. It, and other incidents like it, need to be attributed directly to the rules and regulations put in place by authorities and airlines. The improved reliability of the machinery we operate is what is mainly responsible for generally improving safety in aviation, not the application of more and more restrictive operating practices.
Good luck down there with your blinkered regulators. Must be tough to fly an approach at all when you're upside down to start with..
Out
Last edited by GlenQuagmire; 29th Jun 2015 at 06:56. Reason: bloody iPad fiddling with my spelling
It's not heroic of a pilot to make a visual approach. It's utterly dismal if they can't! Are you telling me that you can't accurately land your aircraft visually without glide slope information? Astonishing...
The following extract from the article is worth pondering. "More than 1,000 MPL certificate holders - who by definition are unqualified to fly PIC of so much as a Cessna 150, - are already occupying the right seat of airliners world wide. They'll learn the ropes from their captains and lean heavily on automation and in time they'll get perfectly adept at everyday line flying on full automation. The time for a pilot to build basic flying skills is before flying for an airline, because afterward they will only get weaker
It may be some years before that proverbial dark and stormy night on which they find themselves on the edge of the envelope and their stick-and-rudder skills are tested for the first time. I'd just rather not be riding in the back when it happens. In short, modern airline flying does not build basic flying skills - it atrophies them".
Glen, I didn't imply a visual approach is a hero approach. I have done thousands of visual approaches, I would wager more than you. My reference to "hero" was in relation to your visual approach and first seeing the PAPIs and finding they are 4 whites or 4 reds.
That is not a "middle of the road" visual approach and I would have words with any FO that did it on a regular basis. How on earth do you expect any PNF to support you properly through that? Besides, if the PAPIs were changing as described below 400ft, you were not aiming at the normal 1000ft/300m aim-point; you were going well short. Stable means some semblance of a steady slope from 500ft down, not 4 whites to 3 reds (although you did say 1W3R>2W2R>1W3R)!
It's a very sensible rule that has been in place for decades and I don't have a problem with it at all. You may think black-hole visual landings with no slope guidance at all is OK; I don't think it's heroic, I think it's stupid.
I agree with you one-miles an hour on the standard of stick and rudder skills nowadays; I do not agree that that approach of yours is the norm, nor should it be considered one. Good for heros... but not the masses, including those who can fly visual approaches.
As to the original question, I've been looking more closely than usual over the last few days and with practice it is quite easy to use the PAPI down to 100ft.
Originally Posted by Glen
Got cleared for a visual approach in really bright sunlight and flew a curved constant aspect approach rolling out onto final at about 800' AGL with the aiming point in the right place and stable, on speed, very pleased with myself, and got a very agitated pilot in the other seat tell me I was high when the four whites became just about visible at about 400' (you couldn't see the lights before that because of the sun). They fairly quickly went one white, three reds, two reds two whites, one white three reds and then we landed in the right place at the right speed.
Good luck down there with your blinkered regulators. Must be tough to fly an approach at all when you're upside down to start with..
I agree with you one-miles an hour on the standard of stick and rudder skills nowadays; I do not agree that that approach of yours is the norm, nor should it be considered one. Good for heros... but not the masses, including those who can fly visual approaches.
As to the original question, I've been looking more closely than usual over the last few days and with practice it is quite easy to use the PAPI down to 100ft.
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with practice it is quite easy to use the PAPI down to 100ft.
By "use" the PAPI, you could mean, as I hope you do, monitor it out of the corner of my eye, as one of the many cues and clues available.
Or you could mean make a correction at 150ft to re-establish at 100ft...
I also agree that it was unfortunate that the night element of base training went out of the window (sorry!).
Originally Posted by 16024
By "use" the PAPI, you could mean, as I hope you do, monitor it out of the corner of my eye, as one of the many cues and clues available.
Just as one would use a call from your offsider "you're going high" or "you're going long".
