B788/9: Streets Ahead!
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Having flown the jump seat and the cabin on the 787 here are my observations.
Aircraft ride is unbelievably smooth. Due to gust load suppression and the wing design turbulence is hardly felt at all. Is extremely fast and easy to operate.
Having sat in the cabin all I can say is that it was a big let down. Basically the noise in the cabin during normal operation is quite unacceptable. There is an electrical humming which is constantly present which is quite annoying to say the least.
Nevertheless would love to fly it.
Aircraft ride is unbelievably smooth. Due to gust load suppression and the wing design turbulence is hardly felt at all. Is extremely fast and easy to operate.
Having sat in the cabin all I can say is that it was a big let down. Basically the noise in the cabin during normal operation is quite unacceptable. There is an electrical humming which is constantly present which is quite annoying to say the least.
Nevertheless would love to fly it.
Join Date: May 2004
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Pilot's delight
Despite the problems, a delightful airplane.
(Not sure what the discussion purpose is @lomapaseo, so let's meander . :~)
Handling:Yes, the 777's are easier to fly (= 'light' control loads), but one cannot escape the physical realm. Let's put it this way - a botched flare can be corrected on the 787 whereas it's not that simple on the Triple.
Noise levels:a conversational tone does just fine in the cockpit, no more trainer hoarseness. The in cruise ssshhhhh gives a peaceful easy feeling.
GENx have a bowed rotor issue which causes vibrations during the start sequence. Result, soon's the engine is running (=start ended) you can be forgiven if you think it has shut down, the engine noise just ceases.
Sometimes annoying whistling sound from the EE bay blower ducting, if certain sections are misaligned, it gives a distinct whistling sound, sometimes broken, a bit like morse code and infuriatingly difficult to trace to a fixed spot spatially. v evident, if at all, in the fwd galley and cockpit entry area. One of those sounds that you might not notice till you notice
.
Oxy-generators: FAA had an 'advisory' in 2011 requiring removal of these canisters from the toilets, could this have led to a general avoidance of the chemical generators?
Slippery eel:If you need Speedbrakes use 'em all the way, fully deployed if you want to see some effect - just make sure the rate at which you pull the lever for extension or push back for retraction is slower than the slowest crawl...
Star Trek Display Mode:The MFD's (multi function displays - inboard/lower DU's), are generally used to display 2 different displays each from amongst EFIS, EICAS, SYSTEMS, STATUS etc. But the nice one is to use the whole thing as a single ND ok, Sulu, take her away . . .
Environmental control: Definitely less fatiguing. Truly "arrive in better shape".
ICI Software fix at the moment, isn't the final one yet, operates some internal bleed/s (VBV type?) to open for a 15 minute period if the conditions are sensed to be conducive to ICI, and for a second 15 min period if required. Guess those nice fuel flow values take hit.
Brakes: Now there's a whole story . . . .
(Not sure what the discussion purpose is @lomapaseo, so let's meander . :~)
Handling:Yes, the 777's are easier to fly (= 'light' control loads), but one cannot escape the physical realm. Let's put it this way - a botched flare can be corrected on the 787 whereas it's not that simple on the Triple.
Noise levels:a conversational tone does just fine in the cockpit, no more trainer hoarseness. The in cruise ssshhhhh gives a peaceful easy feeling.
GENx have a bowed rotor issue which causes vibrations during the start sequence. Result, soon's the engine is running (=start ended) you can be forgiven if you think it has shut down, the engine noise just ceases.
Sometimes annoying whistling sound from the EE bay blower ducting, if certain sections are misaligned, it gives a distinct whistling sound, sometimes broken, a bit like morse code and infuriatingly difficult to trace to a fixed spot spatially. v evident, if at all, in the fwd galley and cockpit entry area. One of those sounds that you might not notice till you notice
.
Oxy-generators: FAA had an 'advisory' in 2011 requiring removal of these canisters from the toilets, could this have led to a general avoidance of the chemical generators?
Slippery eel:If you need Speedbrakes use 'em all the way, fully deployed if you want to see some effect - just make sure the rate at which you pull the lever for extension or push back for retraction is slower than the slowest crawl...
Star Trek Display Mode:The MFD's (multi function displays - inboard/lower DU's), are generally used to display 2 different displays each from amongst EFIS, EICAS, SYSTEMS, STATUS etc. But the nice one is to use the whole thing as a single ND ok, Sulu, take her away . . .
Environmental control: Definitely less fatiguing. Truly "arrive in better shape".
ICI Software fix at the moment, isn't the final one yet, operates some internal bleed/s (VBV type?) to open for a 15 minute period if the conditions are sensed to be conducive to ICI, and for a second 15 min period if required. Guess those nice fuel flow values take hit.
Brakes: Now there's a whole story . . . .
Interesting they went 'back' to steel oxygen cylinders to supply passenger oxygen rather than ox generators.
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Good Points = And...
While not overtly stated, the bottom line remains: whatever system you fly, know it inside-out... Know what the gonculators will do, why and how to get them out of the way when necessary. Current reading suggests that triple pilots have learned these methods and '87 boys and girls are still working through the process. The three week (or however long) upgrade course simply will NOT - cannot teach everything that you need to know.
This time, perfect stick and rudder just won't make it: one must know the systems well and yes, the function and effect of EVERY switch on knob, including how it may interact with other systems.
Most 787 sales remain foreign, yet basic training is done in English. Regardless of ESL levels, the pilot's brain simply does not capture everything presented. IMO, it will take another 5+years to build a cadre of truly, fully qualified pilots for the '87 series. The majority of the necessary learning comes through DOING (Flying in this case), not reading or watching or even SIM time. It is a very different beast, one that can be commanded, but damn sure not in 3-4 weeks time. It will happen; some will become experts, but we just are not there yet.
This time, perfect stick and rudder just won't make it: one must know the systems well and yes, the function and effect of EVERY switch on knob, including how it may interact with other systems.
Most 787 sales remain foreign, yet basic training is done in English. Regardless of ESL levels, the pilot's brain simply does not capture everything presented. IMO, it will take another 5+years to build a cadre of truly, fully qualified pilots for the '87 series. The majority of the necessary learning comes through DOING (Flying in this case), not reading or watching or even SIM time. It is a very different beast, one that can be commanded, but damn sure not in 3-4 weeks time. It will happen; some will become experts, but we just are not there yet.
Denti
The B737 replacement is the Y1 project with entry to service towards 2030. The aircraft will have greater capacity than many envisage. It appears Boeing will not build anything below a 210 seater or single aisle in the future. They will leave that segment to Bombardier, Embraer, Mitsubishi, Russian offering or Chinese offering. It is assumed Airbus will do likewise.
The B737 replacement is the Y1 project with entry to service towards 2030. The aircraft will have greater capacity than many envisage. It appears Boeing will not build anything below a 210 seater or single aisle in the future. They will leave that segment to Bombardier, Embraer, Mitsubishi, Russian offering or Chinese offering. It is assumed Airbus will do likewise.
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Yup, that was my impression as well. That was why i was kinda surplussed that some think that boeing will ever do a 150 seat replacement for the 737. But then, the 737MAX will probably remain in production for 20 years after they are put into service, same as the 737NG.
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Autodrag feature is great too. In flap 25 or 30, fly the assigned fast speed on approach, and then when reducing the speed on the MCP, automatically the spoilers go up, ailerons go up, flaperons go down, pitch remains the same and the aircraft slows down on a ticky! Many great features and lovely to fly!
Join Date: May 2004
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B787 - a different beast, a different beauty
@No_Fly_Zone has it down pretty accurately, just to add another 2 bits worth:
The cinchiest conversion IMHO has been the one from B744 to the B777.
B777 to B787 not so simple, the differences require a different mindset too. Keep kicking yourself when asked by an old fashioned B744 skipper sitting in the sim, half question, half statement, "so the APU can be started at F430 and is it's bleed only usable till 22,000 ft, or throughout the envelope?" and for that split moment, you puzzle over it, trying to figure how it works, yet vaguely resentful because you know the question isn't 'legit', you even start thinking - why did i never think about that??, then sudden relief . . . . "Oh, Captain, we don't have/use bleed air on this airplane, and the engines start using electric starter-generators. We do not have a X-Bleed Start, we have a X-Start.
"why am I seeing the amber alert HYD L + C + R before engine start, all pumps are 'on' or 'auto(= enabled)' " - so then . . . you ninny, brakes are electric, and there's no body gear or main gear steering! (it's sophisticated, and small)
The B787 IRU's can be aligned inflight - sweet? Once on the Triple I'd berated an ex-naval pilot for blaspheming, by even suggesting this. That too on his Soviet built heavy metal contra-rotating multi crewed Godzilla shaming monster bird. Clearly, it was his ineptitude at back-answering authority and my good luck that my statement prevailed.
The cinchiest conversion IMHO has been the one from B744 to the B777.
B777 to B787 not so simple, the differences require a different mindset too. Keep kicking yourself when asked by an old fashioned B744 skipper sitting in the sim, half question, half statement, "so the APU can be started at F430 and is it's bleed only usable till 22,000 ft, or throughout the envelope?" and for that split moment, you puzzle over it, trying to figure how it works, yet vaguely resentful because you know the question isn't 'legit', you even start thinking - why did i never think about that??, then sudden relief . . . . "Oh, Captain, we don't have/use bleed air on this airplane, and the engines start using electric starter-generators. We do not have a X-Bleed Start, we have a X-Start.
"why am I seeing the amber alert HYD L + C + R before engine start, all pumps are 'on' or 'auto(= enabled)' " - so then . . . you ninny, brakes are electric, and there's no body gear or main gear steering! (it's sophisticated, and small)
The B787 IRU's can be aligned inflight - sweet? Once on the Triple I'd berated an ex-naval pilot for blaspheming, by even suggesting this. That too on his Soviet built heavy metal contra-rotating multi crewed Godzilla shaming monster bird. Clearly, it was his ineptitude at back-answering authority and my good luck that my statement prevailed.
NFZ.
Good post sir. You highlight the very problems with moden training for all computerised aircraft, and it is something that needs addressing.
Good post sir. You highlight the very problems with moden training for all computerised aircraft, and it is something that needs addressing.
Join Date: Mar 2001
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A few millimeters of metal won't help in any way against cosmic radiation. You would need a few meters of lead or paraffin concrete to block that out.
In that regard there is no difference between metal and carbon.
In that regard there is no difference between metal and carbon.
SkyGod
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We have a few 787s and some pilots prefer not to fly them because of increased radiation.
The difference should be easy to measure though, surely Boeing has done studies of radiation during test flights and the numbers should be available...
The difference should be easy to measure though, surely Boeing has done studies of radiation during test flights and the numbers should be available...
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Not all that easy, normal dosimeter patches are not suitable. You need kinda special equipment for that, which is of course available, just hire a scientific institute that deals with stuff like that. I know Lufthansa did that quite a few years ago, they hired the PTB to measure cosmic radiation and proposed countermeasures on delivery flights (if i remember correctly 744 deliveries).
The 787 could suffer higher radiation though, if it flies consistently higher than other planes.
The 787 could suffer higher radiation though, if it flies consistently higher than other planes.
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The difference should be easy to measure though, surely Boeing has done studies of radiation during test flights and the numbers should be available.
It will be one of those things where someone mentioned it, they punched in the numbers laughed and said no problem.
