Hand flying skills not a priority says Embry Riddle educator

[Teldorserious]

So being a pilot means turning on the AP and flying the heading bug on a canned flight plan? Is that it? Is that what everyone is training for?

Talk about a myopic point of view where none of the gear breaks, where pilots just follow a little white aircraft to show them where they are.

This industry is beyond sad, and currently at a real low point. I would say that while the gear is getting better, pilots are devolving.

[bubbers44]

I went to Embry Riddle for a couple of months and wasn't impressed. Everything cost more and I thought it would lead into an airline job but it didn't. I got my commercial license sign off in 66 and spent a season crop dusting because I knew the guy. I am not complaining but just go to your local airport and get your ratings. Don't waste your money at ER because you think you will get an airline job.

[Teldorserious]

Bubbers - I think ER and most of your university programs are selling a job, their connectons at the end of it. For a lucky few, some ab initios, maybe, but it's a high price. I ripped through my ratings for about a third what the local community college charged, but for the players it worked out for them..the guys that got the 200 hours, then instructed for 5 minutes, then vfr 135, then some 121 commuter. Some guys have a plan to work in aviaton that has little with being good or actually being a pilot, they want a seat and some epulets. Some of these guy have never had, nor probably ever will command an aircraft until the very very end, and even then, it will only be on a canned flight plan, a SOP book under the seat, a phone to the right, and a copilot telling them what to do, watching them.

To each his own, but I think it's a very sad day when a pilot says he's a pilot, full well knowing he can't fly a plane with out all the gear in front of him propping him up. Complete sham.

[yanrair]

Funny thing that people forget like the \E Riddle man.
Automation is fine but when the wind gets up over 25kts the pilot has to fly manually and the windier it gets the more this is true. So stick and rudder skills are as important as ever and until they make a plane that can tackle all the variations of weather it will remain so. Last winter in Dublin it was on max crosswind with rain on and off for days. The skills displayed by all the pilots was good to watch in these marginal conditions.

[doubleu-anker]

What he could have said was "practicing these skills is no longer a priority"

We don't get the chance to practice these skills. The a/p's are far superior than any human at manipulation of the aircraft controls. We are discouraged from practicing our skills. With the A/P engaged, it frees up a pilot to observe and see the big picture. This we all know.

What was remaining, the best practice was hand flying in the cruise. Now, with RVSM, you can't allow that now.

So unless you had the skills at the outset, they are difficult to pickup along the way, especially the younger people, on long haul.

I know pilots, (senior Captains) who are almost totally reliant on the automatics. I fear for them and their passengers if the aircraft had to be hand flown, especially at altitude. Not their fault, it is the system.

[Desert185]

My take on ER philosophy. Its not where the individual learns how to fly. Its all about the individual and his/her ability to fly. The great ones are great regardless of who teaches them to fly. Talent is talent.

[flarepilot]

hand flying says: embry riddle no longer needed.

[DownIn3Green]

Desert is correct...!

But on the other hand if new students are being taught this dribble by an ex-NWA greybeard endorsing E/R's policies...(I only say this because a true line pilot for a major would never drink this cup of Kool-Aid) it seems he is more worried about his tenure rather than the future of US Aviation...

And ergo, what chance do our future Captains have if this is what they are having drummed into them...?

[DozyWannabe]

Originally Posted by flyboyike

In Capt Panosian's defense, he doesn't appear to say hand-flying is not important, he's saying that systems management is AS important as hand-flying, which isn't quite the same thing.

+1

He's not saying that stick-and-rudder is less important, he's saying that both systems management and stick-and-rudder need to be taught and maintained to a very high standard!

(Which also means the thread title is inaccurate...)

[Capn Bloggs]

No, he said:

And that, Panosian says, makes a pilot's need for systems and information management skills at least as important as their stick and rudder abilities, and arguably more important.

Arguably more important. Which means Stick and rudder is lower on the importance list (in his opinion, of course).

he's saying that both systems management and stick-and-rudder need to be taught and maintained to a very high standard!

Where did he say anything like "stick and rudder must be maintained to a very high standard?".

[DozyWannabe]

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

Arguably more important. Which means Stick and rudder is lower on the importance list (in his opinion, of course).

Not the way I read it, but YMMV. To me it reads that *some* may argue understanding the automatics is more important, not necessarily that he would. And nowhere is it even implied that this would make stick-and-rudder unimportant.

Where did he say anything like "stick and rudder must be maintained to a very high standard?".

I would have thought that was a given. But he's categorically *not* saying that "handflying skills [are] not a priority", as the thread title implies.

[DownIn3Green]

Keep Dozing, Dozy...

Dozy,

Keep dozing and stay a wannabe....and stop trying to defend a moron "professor" regarding his stand on something you know nothing about...

[DozyWannabe]

DownIn3Green:

I'm not trying to defend anybody, I'm just saying that the thread title is at odds with what the guy appears to be saying!

Put another way, if one were to say something like "Cyanide is arguably more deadly than arsenic", it's a very different thing from saying that arsenic is not deadly, or that the deadliness of arsenic is not of primary importance.

[Pugilistic Animus]

but he is stating hand flying is losing importance...in paraphrase

[bubbers44]

The solution is very simple. Learn to handfly your aircraft very well and know your systems as we have all for decades been doing then incorporate automation to make your job easier. If things start falling apart just do this the opposite direction as the AA video shows about of children of the magenta line.

[DozyWannabe]

Originally Posted by Pugilistic Animus

but he is stating hand flying is losing importance...in paraphrase

I don't think he is, sir. Centaurus (for whom I have a lot of respect) seems to have read it that way, but I have to metaphorically squint and tilt my head a bit to do the same.

The reason for this is his use of the word "skill". Now, a lot of what I'm seeing from time to time seems to be a generalised sense that rote button-pushing and knob-twiddling on the FMS interface has allowed for the erosion of handflying skills. I may not do it for a living, but I fly enough as SLF that I have as strong an interest in the people up front doing it right as anyone - but I don't think that's what the person concerned is advocating here, and the reason for that is that rote use of the automatics is not particularly skilful.

*Skilled* use of the systems requires a fairly thorough understanding of said systems - modes of operation, correct usage with regard to phase of flight, understanding of failure modes and their consequences etc. Not to mention a thorough understanding of when it's time to switch the systems off and handle the aircraft yourself.

As such, the way I read it is that he's arguing for training on systems and information handling to provide a level of understanding that is as good as, or better than, stick-and-rudder handling is at the point where pilots begin their transition to ATPL (which is arguably when they will be at their most well-drilled).

[Pugilistic Animus]

...stick and rudder skills maybe falling down the list of important assets required by professional pilots...means?
great post Airrabbit

[RAT 5]

Learn to handfly your aircraft very well and know your systems as we have all for decades been doing then incorporate automation to make your job easier.

This should be the philosophy of all TQ courses. When the a/c were more basic this was the way, naturally. There was less automation to learn. Then, as more wizz-bang goodies came on board they took more of the attention. There were more buttons and one had to use them. Sadly, the basic flying practice was diluted perhaps to keep the TQ course to the same number of hours, but now there was more button pushing to learn. IMHO, both aspects have been diluted. In many TQ courses the syllabus calls for basic knowledge of the automatics, but not their full envelope and gotchas. Thus the new student does not know the flying envelope of the a/c, their own envelope nor the full capabilities of the automatics. "Fly to SOP's and you'll be fine". They stay in the very small centre of a big box. Real life sometimes takes you towards the edges. This is outside the 'comfort zone'. The comfort zone is defined by knowledge & experience. Now there are captains around with 4 years flying experience for 1 airline on 1 type. They've spent their whole lives inside their tiny comfort zone box; never been taught or shown where the real edges are. It is a hell of a shock if they go near them and their uncertain intervention could make matters worse, not better. SOP's are designed so you never go near the edges, but life is not like that, especially when Murphy & Mother Nature are involved.
I repeat again & again: the pax expect us to save the day when it goes pear shaped, or at least have an idea how to try. They do not expect us to be the source of the problem and then make it worse.

[Desert185]

Nicely said, Rat 5. The devil is in the details, but the details should be explored for complete understanding.

[777300ER]

Learn to handfly your aircraft very well and know your systems as we have all for decades been doing then incorporate automation to make your job easier.

Precisely! Let's face it - this used to be conventional wisdom. That is until the endless pursuit of cost savings commenced over the last couple of decades.

It is interesting to note that these detrimental attitude changes have only occurred at the airline level. The corporate sector seems relatively immune so far to the slash and burn antics that are taking place at many airlines. No self respecting jet-setter/tycoon would think it's a good idea to dumb down the cockpit to save a few bucks.