Automation vs Seat-of-the-pants-flying talking as devil's advocate - so no abuse plea

[Clandestino]

I am highly distressed at the course modern aviation (of all forms ) has taken.

I am not. It is far too easy for a PPRuNer to assume what mass-media are reporting is average crew performance while actually it is only the worst extreme that is nowadays recognized as reportingworthy.

Automation...great as it never fails

That's not what operating and training manuals say. There are appropriate procedures for dealing with automation failures and they get followed far more often than not.

The current myopia is that the gear won't break. This is self delusion at it's best.

As long as such myopia is limited to anonymous doom-rantings on the Internet, I'm fine with it. There are incompetent managers stipulating policies that are somewhat at odds with need to keep the pilots fit enough to take over from Otto/George when it packs up but while they might be flying-ignorant, they are still legal-savvy and would never explicitly even state their pilots need not be proficient in manual flying, let alone put it down in approved manuals.

AF447 went down because a lighting strike flashed the ROMS, knocked out the tubes, no iron gyros and now in turbulence, you got pilots in the dark trying to handfly an aircraft with no attitude reference.

The purpose of this easily verifiable and utterly false statement is mystery to me.

We have shrunk the single most important instrument (airspeed) to a sidebar

1. It is not the single most important instrument when you are flying without outside visual reference, as airline pilots often do. 2. There is no even half serious report on difficulties interpreting the airspeed from tape indicators ever since we got them on Thunderchief.

We have taken the mental situational awareness away...

For Finnegan's sake.... how do you explain thousands upon thousands of uneventful flights every day or dozens of abnormal situations handled daily if the mental situational awareness is really taken away? Again: this is assuming the worst case scenario is actually the usual one.

But we have moved away from FLYING in an effort to make the gadgets happy.

Never an inch. We, here, have moved from rational analysis into realm of fantasy gone wild just to make our scaremongering seem plausible.

Drum type ASI's need interpretation of a different type to round dial ASI's.

I've flown the beast with drum and pointer altimeter but this... is this some kind of Soviet thingy? Can I have a picture of it, please?

My bet is it will turn out to be just added digital readout to speed tape.

Take a look at the "modern" artificial horizon in glass cockpits. Usually a tiny triangle as "the little aeroplane" if you have a good imagination, and nothing like the old type of artificial horizons of yesteryear with a big "little aeroplane" that stood out like dog's balls and much easier to fly on instruments.

For Finnegan's sake, when I take a look around my office, the only AH comparable in size to those of steam gauge era is ISIS! Those on PFDs (and EADI before it) are far bigger than giant three-inchers of yesteryear. AS for tiny triangle a) it is not that tiny b) European airlines prefer split cue so we mostly still have aeroplane silhouette on AHs.

The glass cockpit AH's which are usually half camouflaged by coloured bakgrounds are designed primarily for flight directors

Coloured background has pretty definite meaning: blue=sky, brown=ground. Just remember which is which.

It may be why the average airline pilot brought up on button pushing often has trouble with basic instrument flying

Average pilot in average circumstances (hopefully this fits the "often" definition) doesn't but don't let the facts ruin the good libel.

lump in wx radar in the nav area...but you could clean things up by having a voice say: fly heading 220degrees, instead of cluttering up the cockpit with things so big they detract from basic flight instruments

What kind of lump? Where is the sun? What is the wind? Is it the only lump around? Where is the terrain in relation to lump? What wx is our destination calling? Will our contingency+extra cover the deviation?

Create computer and program that will solve all of it satisfactorily to just give you "steer to..." as solution and I guarantee the Nobel prize in computer science will be made just to be delivered to you, because you will achieve true artificial intelligence.

And yes, the Air Speed Indicator with a pointer and a vref somewhere near the 3 or 4 o'clock position, V2 also is just about right.

It is. So is the tape type.

[flarepilot]

clandestino

yes airspeed might not be the most important thing while on instruments...but my comment was aimed at landing and or visual conditions.

and in visual conditions asiana managed to get too slow.they didn't need a horizon to know they were right side up. we shall see

[Natstrackalpha]

[QUOTE]Land-Rover, to have the system miss the "offending phrase"/QUOTE]

``Randy Lover?``

[Natstrackalpha]

[QUOTE]that stood out like dog's balls and much easier to fly on instruments. /QUOTE]

Yawing Right tread on left ball, yawing left tread on right ball - dog yelping - too much rudder!

You could have a concrete boulder tied to a chain suspended from the overhead panel. When the aircraft banks the huge boulder bangs the heads of the crew to wake them up -

[dubbleyew eight]

I just love this piece of

Automation...great as it never fails

as a former control systems engineer I can assure you that automation is only ever as good as the sensors. when either they fail or the link to them fails you'd better have a good fallback approach.

[RAT 5]

when either they fail or the link to them fails you'd better have a good fallback approach.

It's called the disconnect button and the pilot.

[N1EPR]

Another pilots veiw of Visual App

There I was at six thousand feet over central Iraq , two hundred eighty knots and we're dropping faster than Paris Hilton's panties. It's a typical September evening in the Persian Gulf ; hotter than a rectal thermometer and I'm sweating like a priest at a Cub Scout meeting. But that's neither here nor there. The night is moonless over Baghdad tonight, and blacker than a Steven King novel. But it's 2006, folks, and I'm sporting the latest in night-combat technology - namely, hand-me-down night vision goggles (NVGs) thrown out by the fighter boys. Additionally, my 1962 Lockheed C-130E Hercules is equipped with an obsolete, yet, semi-effective missile warning system (MWS). The MWS conveniently makes a nice soothing tone in your headset just before the missile explodes into your airplane. Who says you can't polish a turd? At any rate, the NVGs are illuminating Baghdad International Airport like the Las Vegas Strip during a Mike Tyson fight. These NVGs are the cat's ass. But I've digressed. The preferred method of approach tonight is the random shallow. This tactical maneuver allows the pilot to ingress the landing zone in an unpredictable manner, thus exploiting the supposedly secured perimeter of the airfield in an attempt to avoide enemy surface-to-air-missiles and small arms fire. Personally, I wouldn't bet my pink ass on that theory but the approach is fun as hell and that's the real reason we fly it. We get a visual on the runway at three miles out, drop down to one thousand feet above the ground, still maintaining two hundred eighty knots. Now the fun starts.It's pilot appreciation time as I descend the mighty Herc to six hundred feet and smoothly, yet very deliberately, yank into a sixty degree left bank, turning the aircraft ninety degrees offset from runway heading. As soon as we roll out of the turn, I reverse turn to the right a full two hundred seventy degrees in order to roll out aligned with the runway. Some aeronautical genius coined this maneuver the "Ninety/Two-Seventy." Chopping the power during the turn, I pull back on the yoke just to the point my nether regions start to sag, bleeding off energy in order to configure the pig for landing. "Flaps Fifty!, landing Gear Down!, Before Landing Checklist!" I lookover at the copilot and he's shaking like a cat ****ting on a sheet of ice. Looking further back at the navigator, and even through the Nags, I can clearly see the wet spot spreading around his crotch. Finally, I glance at my steely eyed flight engineer. His eyebrows rise in unison as a grin forms on his face. I can tell he's thinking the same thing I am .... "Where do we find such fine young men?""Flaps One Hundred!" I bark at the shaking cat. Now it's all aim-point and airspeed. Aviation 101, with the exception there are no lights, I'm on NVGs, it's Baghdad , and now tracers are starting to crisscross the black sky. Naturally, and not at all surprisingly, I grease the Goodyear's on brick-one of runway 33 left, bring the throttles to ground idle and then force the props to full reverse pitch. Tonight, the sound of freedom is my four Hamilton Standard propellers chewing through the thick, putrid, Baghdad air. The huge, one hundred thirty-thousand pound, lumbering whisper pig comes to a lurching stop in less than two thousand feet. Let's see a Viper do that!We exit the runway to a welcoming committee of government issued Army grunts. It's time to download their beans and bullets and letters from their sweethearts, look for war booty, and of course, urinate on Saddam's home. Then I thank God I'm not in the Army. Knowing once again I've cheated death, I ask myself, "What in the hell am I doing in this mess?" Is it Duty, Honor, and Country? You bet your ass. Or could it possibly be for the glory, the swag, and not to mention, chicks dig the Air Medal. There's probably some truth there, too. But now is not the time to derive the complexities of the superior, cerebral properties of the human portion of the aviator-man-machine model. It is however, time to get out of this hole. Hey copilot how's 'bout the 'Before Starting Engines Checklist." God, I love this job!!!!

[flarepilot]

Instead of talking about laser ring gyros, let's get back to basic flying like our gallant C130 jockey

I'll bet less than half of those on this forum have ever used a 90/270 in any situation.

[Feather #3]

Flarepilot,

Air displays. Works a treat!

BTW, I had tears in my eyes I was laughing so hard. Thanks N1EPR

G'day

[RAT 5]

Last time I did that was in a crop-sprayer a couple of wing-tips off the deck. However, that a/c was built for it. Hauling a big C130 around like that must be a feeling of 'a job well done,' after the "what the **** am I doing this for" moment.
If you've got the t-shirt what brings a smile these days?

[flarepilot]

right now some real flying is being done in order to fight major wildfires in the western UNITED STATES, esp near and in Yosemite national park.

drone fire bombers? don't think that will be happening soon.

[AirRabbit]

Finally!!!!

Thanks N1EPR !!!

I've finally found someone who's posts can be as long as mine!!

.

[Clandestino]

Originally Posted by flarepilot

I'll bet less than half of those on this forum have ever used a 90/270 in any situation.

90/270 is often used for course reversal... in imagination of the folks who don't actually fly.

[mross]

How can a ninety left followed by a two-seventy right not have you flying away from the runway? Or did I miss the half rolls?

[barit1]

How can a ninety left followed by a two-seventy right not have you flying away from the runway? Or did I miss the half rolls?

It's a simple course reversal. Need not have anything to do with a runway.

[flarepilot]

mross...imagine you are flying heading 360 degrees over runway 36 make a left 90 followed by a right 270 and you should be heading 180 in a place to go straight in to runway 18

it is a course reversal

and dear clandestino

real pilots do use 90/270s in real life and in the sim.

we are allowed to do them in lieu of a charted procedure turn as long as it is on the protected side.

I've done them in real jets / real instrument simulators...GETTING PAID REAL MONEY.

[RAT 5]

How can a ninety left followed by a two-seventy right not have you flying away from the runway? Or did I miss the half rolls?


Arithmetic and situational awareness.

[Capn Bloggs]

How can a ninety left followed by a two-seventy right not have you flying away from the runway? Or did I miss the half rolls?

I'm scatching my head over that one as well...

[mross]

-90+270=180 - yes we got that ;-)

Thanks to people who pointed out that a 90/270 is a course reversal - that is bleeding obvious to all of us!!!

What I had missed, reading N1EPR's tale, was that he overflew the runway first. He mentions descending above the airfield perimeter but that is what you do on a normal approach too. Nor did he give runway headings. It's hard to read such a big block of text, especially when it's fully justified!

Anyway, it was a good read, albeit wildly off topic

[DozyWannabe]

Originally Posted by Teldorserious

The current myopia is that the gear won't break. This is self delusion at it's best.

If that's the case, then why is it that "the gear" is designed in such a way that it can "break" in any myriad number of ways and leave the aircraft in a flyable state? Or that recurrent training includes scenarios where said systems fail?

AF447 went down because a lighting strike flashed the ROMS, knocked out the tubes, no iron gyros and now in turbulence, you got pilots in the dark trying to handfly an aircraft with no attitude reference.

Like Clandestino, I have no idea where you got that from - but there's no evidence whatsoever to support that scenario, and a whole load of evidence that refutes it.

Not to mention that even if the shielding were to be defeated - lightning strikes don't "flash" ROMs, all the ADIRUs plus ISIS back-up use data from gyros mounted in the unit and the FDR confirms that at least one attitude reference was working just fine throughout.

Originally Posted by flarepilot

The control system would be Douglas strong...cables, no computer interference and the plane itself would be strong enough to handle me flying the wings off it ONCE to a safe landing.

Would that be "Douglas strong" like the THY DC-10 where a floor collapse severed all the cables and hydraulic lines? And would this be the same Douglas that swore up-and-down to Capt. Bryce McCormick that it was impossible to lose all hydraulics on the DC-10?

Don't get me wrong, Douglas did make their airframes fairly tough, but they lagged behind badly in the redundancy and survivability stakes going into the jet age. Also, any airliner using direct cable connections can't be much bigger than a DC-6. That means no more widebodies and a rapidly contracting airline industry.

Electronic control connections are much less bulky, easier to route through the more solid sections of the airframe and present a much smaller area prone to damage by debris. An electronic system is also far easier to provide re-routing redundancy if and when such damage occurs.

Originally Posted by A37575

Round dial ASI's took your attention as their rate of change of airspeed in either direction stood out. Drum type ASI's need interpretation of a different type to round dial ASI's.

Different yes, but not more difficult if the current safety record is taken into account. Anyway, pilots have been debating the relative merits and preferences regarding instruments - and altimeters in particular - going back to the E. K. Gann days (specifically the three-needle vs. two-needle plus drum types).

Again, don't get me wrong - Clandestino is absolutely right when he says that unscrupulous management and executives are in some cases cutting stick-and-rudder experience and training too close to the bone. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here - the fact is that these advances have made civil aviation a hell of a lot safer and allowed the industry to grow to a level that was unimaginable even in the '60s. This fact is as simple as it is irrefutable.

As a techie, I'm as prone as anyone to getting the rose-tinted specs out when it comes to remembering the days of bit-flipping on 8- and 16-bit processors versus the highly regimented, abstracted and process-driven methods we use today. I seriously miss the simplicity and the feeling of direct communion with the machine. But if I take those specs off for even a few seconds I realise that I'd be nuts to even attempt what is done these days using those old methods.