Emergency Descent - 36000'
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Guys, Of course I understand about maximising range for the next phase etc. etc. My simple comment was I was told it was wrong to descend below 10,000' in what ever circumstance. I was also told I had to fly on QNH in the airway system and that FL 90 was wrong.
I call all these things into doubt on airmanship and ATC grounds.
I call all these things into doubt on airmanship and ATC grounds.
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Quite honestly these issues of RVSM/traffic separation are red herrings. We have the need to descend rapidly. As long as we stop at a safe height, our MAYDAY should have ensured that other traffic has been 'tidied away' as well as possible. Once the 'immediate emergency is over, then we can all sort out altimeter settings to suit ATC.
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our MAYDAY should have ensured that other traffic has been 'tidied away'
This brings the whole debate full circle. I'm still having non-conclusive discussions with other trainers: and I don't want to take this topic back to the beginning, again. Other traffic might have been tided away if you are in a radar environment, they act promptly and you wait for an ATC clearance before you leave your cleared level. (this brought about the whole debate about TA only). If you hurtle out of the sky and cause ATC's collision avoidance bells & whistles to activate then the other traffic will not have been tided away and a further mess will be ensuing.
I agree that later on liaison with ATC can sort out the hp issue, but my main point is that I've been told it is wrong to take the initiative and level at FL. The QRH says 10,000' = regional QNH. That is what I question and I hate having to teach such an SOP which seems questionable on airmanship & safety grounds.
This brings the whole debate full circle. I'm still having non-conclusive discussions with other trainers: and I don't want to take this topic back to the beginning, again. Other traffic might have been tided away if you are in a radar environment, they act promptly and you wait for an ATC clearance before you leave your cleared level. (this brought about the whole debate about TA only). If you hurtle out of the sky and cause ATC's collision avoidance bells & whistles to activate then the other traffic will not have been tided away and a further mess will be ensuing.
I agree that later on liaison with ATC can sort out the hp issue, but my main point is that I've been told it is wrong to take the initiative and level at FL. The QRH says 10,000' = regional QNH. That is what I question and I hate having to teach such an SOP which seems questionable on airmanship & safety grounds.
Last edited by RAT 5; 24th Jul 2013 at 11:26.
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Back to my point - use the best QNH if there is terrain doubt. If you are over the ocean/etc 1013/2992 will be fine. There is plenty of time (minutes) to change from STD. Re 'Hurtling out of the sky'/bells and whistles - only a temporary problem? By the way, I would NOT wait for 'ATC Clearance'! Just get down - and the chances of hitting something are minimal in reality, and unless you are procedural - in which case ATC can do nothing for other traffic's routing - ATC should notice the rapidly unwinding transponder squawk + the MAYDAY when you can..
It is a big sky and a little feather-ruffling will not cause World war III.
It is a big sky and a little feather-ruffling will not cause World war III.
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re:
re:
re:
re:
. . and, don`t forget to Sqawk mayday, immediately - it a does a lot, very quickly . . .
Also, with respect to the girlies in the offices - if the wealth of experience on here (and us up there) are . . mulling over the diff between QNH or QNE then do as BOAC says - `cos if we have found an anomoly and cannot readily solve it for now, why do we think "they" can.
I here what you are all saying - this should be thrashed out in . . wherever they thrash these things out ICAO but if you are worried about teaching the SOP as concrete then go down "there" and tell the girlies in the office or write them a letter - there are more ways to ruffle a plumage than others which are operational.
Who flies these things anyway? Whose a** is in the cockpit carrying up to 400 or more lives . . .?
You make the decisions not only for your aircraft but also for aviation as a whole - "developments as a result of pressure from the industry" Captains of Airliners are - like it or not, also, Captains of Industry - it should also be observed that if they do not take your viewpoints very seriously indeed, viz a vie "from the guy sitting at the sharp end, all the time" then that would be clearly - insane. If they listen to me, then they damn well WILL listen to you.
Flight Safety has
all to do with protocol and cuddly wuddly peace and quiet.
I/we have tangibly done our bit and I await 2014 with baited breath - as far as MORA/MSA and definitions esoteric on the final level being 10,000 14,000 or below, infinite and, as yet, inconclusive then lobby and do it now.
I cannot here, but only relay. which may not do much, as I am still frying my brain since lacking the requisite experience and knowledge level to even dare ponder commenting on the differences listed above.
If you do not lead them - it shall not be done. ICAO, on receiving your complaint, enquiry, report, concern, observation will breathe a sigh of relief that somebody out there - YOU are seeing stuff and acting on it - it saves them a packet of time too - instead of ploughing through the rubble of a smoking hole.
Think of the lives you will have saved (think of the lives you have already saved now) - don`t say nowt` - nobody knows nowt`
re:
re:
re:
. . and, don`t forget to Sqawk mayday, immediately - it a does a lot, very quickly . . .
Also, with respect to the girlies in the offices - if the wealth of experience on here (and us up there) are . . mulling over the diff between QNH or QNE then do as BOAC says - `cos if we have found an anomoly and cannot readily solve it for now, why do we think "they" can.
I here what you are all saying - this should be thrashed out in . . wherever they thrash these things out ICAO but if you are worried about teaching the SOP as concrete then go down "there" and tell the girlies in the office or write them a letter - there are more ways to ruffle a plumage than others which are operational.
Who flies these things anyway? Whose a** is in the cockpit carrying up to 400 or more lives . . .?
You make the decisions not only for your aircraft but also for aviation as a whole - "developments as a result of pressure from the industry" Captains of Airliners are - like it or not, also, Captains of Industry - it should also be observed that if they do not take your viewpoints very seriously indeed, viz a vie "from the guy sitting at the sharp end, all the time" then that would be clearly - insane. If they listen to me, then they damn well WILL listen to you.
Flight Safety has
all to do with protocol and cuddly wuddly peace and quiet.I/we have tangibly done our bit and I await 2014 with baited breath - as far as MORA/MSA and definitions esoteric on the final level being 10,000 14,000 or below, infinite and, as yet, inconclusive then lobby and do it now.
I cannot here, but only relay. which may not do much, as I am still frying my brain since lacking the requisite experience and knowledge level to even dare ponder commenting on the differences listed above.
If you do not lead them - it shall not be done. ICAO, on receiving your complaint, enquiry, report, concern, observation will breathe a sigh of relief that somebody out there - YOU are seeing stuff and acting on it - it saves them a packet of time too - instead of ploughing through the rubble of a smoking hole.
Think of the lives you will have saved (think of the lives you have already saved now) - don`t say nowt` - nobody knows nowt`
Last edited by Natstrackalpha; 28th Jul 2013 at 22:09.
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I'm still with RAT here. I'm not particularly happy if after having my rapid decompression I find myself tootling over a hold for LHR on QNH when every other aircraft is on a FL. It's madness. I still think a descent to the level below FL100 when above the transition should be taught. Either that or as others have said - sort of the level so it's above 10,000! If you have the ability on comms to get QNH then you have the ability to tell them you'll stop at FL90.
Surely this all comes down to your situational awareness?
Surely this all comes down to your situational awareness?
