Circle to land minimas
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Seen that one, thanks, and it doesn't help, but as you say "and really be concerned about how many mistakes can be found on charts or in the navdatabase" - cue Jack Daniels...................?
Pleased I will never operate there. As with all things aviation we must take the safest (highest) value, but one might not be aware there is a 'higher'.
Pleased I will never operate there. As with all things aviation we must take the safest (highest) value, but one might not be aware there is a 'higher'.
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Well, not Jack, but....
anything to get the nightmares to stop!
trust me, every 56 days, when you get the navdatabase files prior to publish to validate...you would be very, very surprised just how many waypoints and runway ends dont concur between design, AIP, and even the different navdatabase providers.....before it is sent to the airline, you have to tell them which one to use. (sometimes the navdata providers will fix the database, sometimes not)
The FAA standard for survey really kills me, as the lat/long for the runway end is measured at the edge of pavement, not the threshold, so the TCH is a real problem. Try looking up a few runway endpoint locations in the FAA database, and plotting them on Google Earth...
anything to get the nightmares to stop!
trust me, every 56 days, when you get the navdatabase files prior to publish to validate...you would be very, very surprised just how many waypoints and runway ends dont concur between design, AIP, and even the different navdatabase providers.....before it is sent to the airline, you have to tell them which one to use. (sometimes the navdata providers will fix the database, sometimes not)
The FAA standard for survey really kills me, as the lat/long for the runway end is measured at the edge of pavement, not the threshold, so the TCH is a real problem. Try looking up a few runway endpoint locations in the FAA database, and plotting them on Google Earth...
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Here is an example that I am well aware of...
Where are you gonna land if you follow the navdatabase?
https://nfdc.faa.gov/nfdcApps/airpor...&airportId=scc
Where are you gonna land if you follow the navdatabase?
https://nfdc.faa.gov/nfdcApps/airpor...&airportId=scc
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It not just PRNAV/WASS/GPS, when you punch in the runway in the FMS, this is what it is looking at....and what is used for the NOTAM review! 
I wont bore you with anymore, but here is 13R at PSP...
I wont bore you with anymore, but here is 13R at PSP...
Last edited by FlightPathOBN; 17th May 2013 at 21:04.
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OK,
Tricks, really? With the magvar, the RWY change regularly...it is now 6/24, not 5/23..
You either need glasses, or well...
Didnt you notice the X's? Did you notice the construction equipment grinding up the runway?
Aside from that, the FAA NFDC portal, which is the Official data source, shows the runway end in the wrong location, just as in the PSP example...you really dont want to see more examples do you?
Tricks, really? With the magvar, the RWY change regularly...it is now 6/24, not 5/23..
You either need glasses, or well...
Didnt you notice the X's? Did you notice the construction equipment grinding up the runway?
Aside from that, the FAA NFDC portal, which is the Official data source, shows the runway end in the wrong location, just as in the PSP example...you really dont want to see more examples do you?
Last edited by FlightPathOBN; 17th May 2013 at 23:08.
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And yes, I wear glasses.
Here is the FAA database (look in the upper right hand of the page for effective dates...)
https://nfdc.faa.gov/nfdcApps/airpor...&airportId=scc
In the Official database, do you even see a runway 6?
Looks like the runway has been built, and there are a few procedures for it, so why is it not in the NFDC database? What would be your GUESS as to the coordinates of the threshold?
I suppose the PSP example was another trick?
I have been talking about RNP procedures...
Here is the RNP plate for RWY 05, notice the active dates?
Last edited by FlightPathOBN; 17th May 2013 at 23:44.
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Valmont,
I don't fly anymore but I know I have flown with you, or your clone of a wanna be pilot...
CRM is Great, I endorse it, but the cockpit is not a democracy...Only ONE PERSON'S decision matters in the final analogy....and that person is NOT YOU!!!
For you to refer to your CAPTAIN as "That Dude" marks you as a frigging jerk in the very first instance...
You're Profile? Commercial Pilot? At FL510? You're either a dreamer or a bigger a$$hole than you have portrayed yourself as on this thread...
Let me know who you work for, and who this "Dude" is, and I'll call your Chief Pilot with a printout of your comments, and then it definately will be "PROBLEM SOLVED" for you, the "Dude", and the next sorry "Dude" who is unfortunate to be desperate enough to have you show up in his right (CO-PILOT) seat...Bl@w Me...Send me a PM and I'll give you my phone #...I don't hide behind PPrune...DI3G
I don't fly anymore but I know I have flown with you, or your clone of a wanna be pilot...
CRM is Great, I endorse it, but the cockpit is not a democracy...Only ONE PERSON'S decision matters in the final analogy....and that person is NOT YOU!!!
For you to refer to your CAPTAIN as "That Dude" marks you as a frigging jerk in the very first instance...
You're Profile? Commercial Pilot? At FL510? You're either a dreamer or a bigger a$$hole than you have portrayed yourself as on this thread...
Let me know who you work for, and who this "Dude" is, and I'll call your Chief Pilot with a printout of your comments, and then it definately will be "PROBLEM SOLVED" for you, the "Dude", and the next sorry "Dude" who is unfortunate to be desperate enough to have you show up in his right (CO-PILOT) seat...Bl@w Me...Send me a PM and I'll give you my phone #...I don't hide behind PPrune...DI3G
Last edited by DownIn3Green; 17th May 2013 at 23:52.
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Arpster, Galaxy, BOAC and others...
We all have been on this site for years...we all have years and many hours behind us...(myself, I am 46 hrs short of the golden # 10,000, and will never see it)...We don't always agree, but as Captains we have never, ever called each other "DUDE"...
Valent has stirred a hornet's nest...He obvivoulsy has zero to very little experience...Reporting his "DUDE" to the Chief Pilot for something that probably scared the sh!t out of him? And you are feeding him by discussing the fine points of something that probably never happened?
With extensive experience in Africa (Transafrik, Cameroon Airlines, Trans Air Congo and SAFIR), even though I was born and bred in the USA/FAA...I feel I have seen it all and I have had pissants like Valent imposed on me...
Please don't give him his due, send him packing to FL510 and let's keep the Prune for real pilots...DI3G
We all have been on this site for years...we all have years and many hours behind us...(myself, I am 46 hrs short of the golden # 10,000, and will never see it)...We don't always agree, but as Captains we have never, ever called each other "DUDE"...
Valent has stirred a hornet's nest...He obvivoulsy has zero to very little experience...Reporting his "DUDE" to the Chief Pilot for something that probably scared the sh!t out of him? And you are feeding him by discussing the fine points of something that probably never happened?
With extensive experience in Africa (Transafrik, Cameroon Airlines, Trans Air Congo and SAFIR), even though I was born and bred in the USA/FAA...I feel I have seen it all and I have had pissants like Valent imposed on me...
Please don't give him his due, send him packing to FL510 and let's keep the Prune for real pilots...DI3G
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FligtPath:
We use the FAA ANV datasheets website for all such stuff, not the NFDC website.
Aside from that, the FAA NFDC portal, which is the Official data source, shows the runway end in the wrong location, just as in the PSP example...you really dont want to see more examples do you?
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Originally Posted by Downin3
And you are feeding him by discussing the fine points of something that probably never happened?
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BOAC:
'expert' in quotes means you mostly hold in contempt whatever I present in this forum. That gets old really fast. OTOH, you seem to lack a grasp of the technical issues so I recommend you email the terminal procedures designers directly at the FAA for pilot expert to procedures expert dialogue:
[email protected]
They are indeed the experts on FAA procedures. Let us know what you find out.
- I was under the impression that Valmont has left this thread (12 May) now that we have moved on, and I am just trying to 'discuss' OK's "3 CM" example, the system and calculations, and which is 'dominant', and so far not one procedures 'expert' has managed to explain them - which is concerning since pilots may well be eroding safety margins with the lower values.
[email protected]
They are indeed the experts on FAA procedures. Let us know what you find out.
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Aterpster - incorrect - surely you have been around here long enough to know that the 'qualifications' quoted are not always true or accurate, hence as with any undefined value I place ' ' around the word expert.
whereas on other threads your inputs have been helpful, in relation to this thread most of your replies to me have regrettably not addressed the questions I have asked or apparently referred to the links I post eg introducing 'TAS' which was not relevant. I had hoped that having two people 'involved' (if you prefer) in airport procedures under TERPS we would be able to come up with some sort of explanation for what is potentially a dangerous set of figures under TERPS and it is of concern that we cannot.
- as do others - which is why I have asked here so that those 'involved' in the subject might educate me but it appears they do not have a 'grasp' either. I will, given time, contact that address. Whether they will
a) answer
or
b) know the 'right' answer, especially when they appear to have 'erred' on FPOBN's circling radius example
I am not sure. If and when, however, I will advise the answer here.
whatever I present in this forum
you seem to lack a grasp of the technical issues
a) answer
or
b) know the 'right' answer, especially when they appear to have 'erred' on FPOBN's circling radius example
I am not sure. If and when, however, I will advise the answer here.
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BOAC:
Let's start over. Where are the potentially dangerous set of figures? I'm not going back through the thread to try to find the "potentially dangerous set of figures."
whereas on other threads your inputs have been helpful, in relation to this thread most of your replies to me have regrettably not addressed the questions I have asked or apparently referred to the links I post eg introducing 'TAS' which was not relevant. I had hoped that having two people 'involved' (if you prefer) in airport procedures under TERPS we would be able to come up with some sort of explanation for what is potentially a dangerous set of figures under TERPS and it is of concern that we cannot.
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After a 'reminder' prod, I was invited to call "Mgr Airport Mapping and AF/D" for an explanation. Since I will not be visiting the US for a while and probably will never operate into Lewiston (if I did I would use the higher of the 3) I have left it dormant. If anyone wishes the contact details, PM me.
