Fly a Boeing? Why is right rudder trim needed in cruise?
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Fly a Boeing? Why is right rudder trim needed in cruise?
Something that I've wondered often but never received a definitive explanation to. Why in the cruise with balanced thrust and fuel do Boeings need a touch of right rudder trim? My experience is on the B757 and B777 but all the variants of the two types are the same. Answers on a post card...
Last edited by Straight & Level; 2nd Apr 2013 at 09:10.
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I've not heard that one. What about a night flight 
Other theories are that the cargo doors on the 757 and 777 are on the right side, and in some way this affects the torsional stiffness of the fuselage, hence the need for rudder trim. What about jet efflux? Could that be an explanation. Aerodynamicists?
Other theories are that the cargo doors on the 757 and 777 are on the right side, and in some way this affects the torsional stiffness of the fuselage, hence the need for rudder trim. What about jet efflux? Could that be an explanation. Aerodynamicists?
Is it the same for different engine types?
Rollers turn one way, GE/PW the other.
I would expect diferent trim for different engines if it was linked.
Just a thought.
Rollers turn one way, GE/PW the other.
I would expect diferent trim for different engines if it was linked.
Just a thought.
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Good point Turin 
RB211/RR Trent engines turn clockwise as viewed from the front, whereas GE's turn anti-clockwise.
All the types I've flown generally need a squeeze of right trim, so you are probably right, it's not down to the engines.
RB211/RR Trent engines turn clockwise as viewed from the front, whereas GE's turn anti-clockwise.
All the types I've flown generally need a squeeze of right trim, so you are probably right, it's not down to the engines.
Last edited by Straight & Level; 2nd Apr 2013 at 11:05. Reason: Typo
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I have noticed the same on the B737 NG. Always a touch of right rudder trim, some more pronounced than others, but always to the right. So its not just 777 and 757's.
If you look at a 737 from behind on the taxi there is quite a noticeable castering effect. Where the aircraft appears to be crabbing slightly to one side. Don't know if that has anything to do with it??
If you look at a 737 from behind on the taxi there is quite a noticeable castering effect. Where the aircraft appears to be crabbing slightly to one side. Don't know if that has anything to do with it??
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On the B742 and B744 and especially on the B748 I believe it has to do with the differing thermal effects on the steel control rod holding the rudder surface in position vs. the aluminium rib structure. Generally as the aircraft structure cools in climb and cruise it pulls the rudder slightly left requiring correction with right rudder trim, and the opposite occurs in descent.
If the rudder control architecture is similar on all Boeings then this could be it?
If the rudder control architecture is similar on all Boeings then this could be it?
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I've noted from time to time that the Captain often sets a little too much left trim during preflight due to the paralax error on the rudder trim indicator as seen from the captain's chair (737).
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A theory I developed with a friend of mine who is a 737NG FO:
The cargo doors on a 737 are on the right hand side. The wear and tear reduces the smoothness of the seal, as well as possibly some of the paint work on that side of the aircraft resulting in the boundary layer becoming more turbulent over that section of the fuselage, creating the small yaw effect.
Could be wrong, don't shoot me down
The cargo doors on a 737 are on the right hand side. The wear and tear reduces the smoothness of the seal, as well as possibly some of the paint work on that side of the aircraft resulting in the boundary layer becoming more turbulent over that section of the fuselage, creating the small yaw effect.
Could be wrong, don't shoot me down
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Bearcat, I've heard something similar myself, but was wondering if there was anything definitive written by Boeing about this. So far I think SMOC and main_dog have the most plausible explanation Any chance of a copy SMOC or a link perhaps? 
Any chance of a copy SMOC or a link perhaps?
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Here's an excerpt from a B747-8 rudder system thermal effects presentation:
During climb as ambient the temperature decreases, the aluminum ribs contract faster and to a greater degree than the steel actuator/tab rod.
The aluminum contraction pulls the rudder hinge pivot point closer to the fin rear spar and the rudder surface is held by the steel actuator and therefore pushed to the left.
Rudder Surface will move approximately 0.3 to 0.5 degrees Left depending on conditions during climb.
Tab rod will also experience drift caused by the same phenomena. Lower tab drift is a sum of the main drift and tab drift.
As the aluminum and steel parts stabilize at sub zero cruse temperatures the offset decreases to approximately 0.2 to 0.3 degrees (Rudder Left).
In descent as the ambient temperature increases, the aluminum warms and expands faster than the steel resulting the rudder being pushed to the right.
Rudder Surfaces will move approximately 0.3 to 0.5 degrees Right depending on conditions during descent.
The aluminum contraction pulls the rudder hinge pivot point closer to the fin rear spar and the rudder surface is held by the steel actuator and therefore pushed to the left.
Rudder Surface will move approximately 0.3 to 0.5 degrees Left depending on conditions during climb.
Tab rod will also experience drift caused by the same phenomena. Lower tab drift is a sum of the main drift and tab drift.
As the aluminum and steel parts stabilize at sub zero cruse temperatures the offset decreases to approximately 0.2 to 0.3 degrees (Rudder Left).
In descent as the ambient temperature increases, the aluminum warms and expands faster than the steel resulting the rudder being pushed to the right.
Rudder Surfaces will move approximately 0.3 to 0.5 degrees Right depending on conditions during descent.
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Straight & Level, yeah and I also found a flaw in my assumptions. If the cargo doors are on the right it should cause a right yaw and hence a LEFT trim input to cancel.
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Good point Bearcat! Thanks for the excerpt Main_dog, I think that explains it reasonably well
BOAC: Most of my flying is in the Northern Hemisphere. Care to expand on your question? I'm not sure I follow your logic
BOAC: Most of my flying is in the Northern Hemisphere. Care to expand on your question? I'm not sure I follow your logic