AF 447 Thread No. 11
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Coroners Inquest and Criminal Proceedings
The Coroner's narrative verdict is worth reading in full. Civil proceedings are unlikely in most cases since they have been settled by the majority of the families. The other legal activity is the French Criminal Investigation, into involuntary homicide. The investigation proceeds and the Judge has yet to even consider whether charges will be made.
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Spilling coffee on the news desk
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Michael Oakley, voiced concern at the level of training received by pilots while delivering a narrative verdict into deaths of two of the 228 passengers and crew who were killed when an Air France flight from Rio de Janeiro to Paris plummeted into Atlantic on June 1 2009.
"The air disaster highlights serious public concern of whether pilots are overly dependent on technology and are not retaining the skills required to properly fly complex commercial aircraft," said Mr Oakley.
"The air disaster highlights serious public concern of whether pilots are overly dependent on technology and are not retaining the skills required to properly fly complex commercial aircraft," said Mr Oakley.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Offshore
Age: 73
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Coroner's report seems fair, lucid and balanced..
This recently-retired old-stager has, during recent years, been involved in simulator-assessment of prospective pilot candidates. Two issues were patently clear almost every day...
1 Candidates with considerable glass-cockpit/advanced-automation equipment very frequently lacked the necessary limited-panel skills... often taking far too long to identify and master system failures.
2 Candidates fresh from ab-initio schools normally fared much better when faced with a requirement to fly limited-panel.. particularly if they were relatively current on limited-panel recovery by reference to clockwork instruments.
This appeared to be a cultural/national issue however.. substantially confined to certain nations.. but not including US,UK, Oz or NZ candidates who generally performed well under limited-panel conditions.
All these computer-laws and nanny-systems can be wonderful things IF they are mounted atop a sound foundation of solid, oft-practiced basic airmanship procedures. IMHO of course.
1 Candidates with considerable glass-cockpit/advanced-automation equipment very frequently lacked the necessary limited-panel skills... often taking far too long to identify and master system failures.
2 Candidates fresh from ab-initio schools normally fared much better when faced with a requirement to fly limited-panel.. particularly if they were relatively current on limited-panel recovery by reference to clockwork instruments.
This appeared to be a cultural/national issue however.. substantially confined to certain nations.. but not including US,UK, Oz or NZ candidates who generally performed well under limited-panel conditions.
All these computer-laws and nanny-systems can be wonderful things IF they are mounted atop a sound foundation of solid, oft-practiced basic airmanship procedures. IMHO of course.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: On the keyboard
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Basic flying skills
Again, well said, talkpedlar. It's the need to be able to fly on not just basic but sub-basic (ie, limited panel) information which seems to be in danger of being lost in these automated days.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Argentina
Age: 66
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just...
It has been argued for years: the responsibility of those who cause accidents. Whether in the streets, in the depths of the sea or in the heights of heaven. We've all seen that we try to make the best (each in their own way), yet we continue to fail. I think it's time to take decisions about these problems as soon as possible. In regard to aviation, it is my personal opinion that trying to automate extremely complex systems for our understanding is a risk that must be assumed. And it is very easy to point to a colleague .. After the failure ... IMHO...
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As one Boeing 787 simulator instructor in Seattle was told by one of the designing team "We have designed the 787 on the basis it will be flown by incompetent pilots - hence the emphasis on automation. 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: SFO/KCH
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can bet your bottom dollars the share holders will make sure they damn well do. These days, everything is about $$$ - and those who have it care very little about integrity or preservation of the ideals which got us where we are.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida and wherever my laptop is
Posts: 1,350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You have to put your arguments in terms that these people understand, Talk about 'integrity' and 'preservation of ideals' and you will see their eyes glaze over. You have to put things in terms of monetary risk if you can't they are not interested - despite mouthing all the platitudes about safety being first priority etc., if you can't put your argument into dollars they will not be even listen.
What a coroner knows about aviation, and aviation safety, strikes me as a valid question regarding this report and its credibility.
I have a question:
did he have access to the training records and quals for all three pilots?
If so, did Air France make them available to him?
Just wondering.
I have a question:
did he have access to the training records and quals for all three pilots?
If so, did Air France make them available to him?
Just wondering.
What a coroner knows about aviation, and aviation safety, strikes me as a valid question regarding this report and its credibility.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: gashbag
Age: 52
Posts: 558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exactly. He is perfectly qualified to suggest that they died due to traumatic impact with the ocean. How the hell is he supposed to know if a pilot has been trained in stall recoveries without access to training records.
Reasonable to assume that at least one of the pilots had once held a ppl, and therefore must have been trained in stall recovery. ( and recognition of the condition)
Reasonable to assume that at least one of the pilots had once held a ppl, and therefore must have been trained in stall recovery. ( and recognition of the condition)
I have a question:
did he have access to the training records and quals for all three pilots?
If so, did Air France make them available to him?
did he have access to the training records and quals for all three pilots?
If so, did Air France make them available to him?
He is perfectly qualified to suggest that they died due to traumatic impact with the ocean. How the hell is he supposed to know if a pilot has been trained in stall recoveries without access to training records.
I must then ask why it is that the coroner's report goes into areas where he knows BFA.
If the BEA report is the ref, well ... it's already been done.
I guess one must follow protocol when one holds the job.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As one Boeing 787 simulator instructor in Seattle was told by one of the designing team "We have designed the 787 on the basis it will be flown by incompetent pilots - hence the emphasis on automation
It appears the Boeing 787 was designed by incompetent designers - hence all the problems....
