Regarding ELECTRICAL THEORY BY JOSEPH LUCAS
Bugg@red about with good old distributors, points and mechanical fuel pumps on my miniblock 318 in a 1967 Bristol for years.
Stuck in a dragster fuel pump, dragster electronic distibutor and after a month a load of cable as thick as your thumb to arrest the smoke emitting from under the dashboard - transformed.
Now the Only visible smoke is in the rear view mirror - two sources - both expensive - tyres last 7000 miles and a set are €2000 and leaded gasoline 12mpg- but it's the kids money!
Stuck in a dragster fuel pump, dragster electronic distibutor and after a month a load of cable as thick as your thumb to arrest the smoke emitting from under the dashboard - transformed.
Now the Only visible smoke is in the rear view mirror - two sources - both expensive - tyres last 7000 miles and a set are €2000 and leaded gasoline 12mpg- but it's the kids money!
blind pew:
Nothing quite like the sound of a V8 in full cry, but my old 1994 Audi will still
leave the smell of rubber in it's wake given a good bootfull and that's with
all 4 wheels driven Brute force or subtlety has always been a taxing problem
Mind you, there's also nothing quite like the intoxicating throttle response that you
can get from a properly set up set of DCOE Weber carbs aside a well sorted
twin cam engine.
Perhaps we should rename this thread the last gasp of the petrolheads ?, but it is
Sunday after all
...
Nothing quite like the sound of a V8 in full cry, but my old 1994 Audi will still
leave the smell of rubber in it's wake given a good bootfull and that's with
all 4 wheels driven Brute force or subtlety has always been a taxing problem
Mind you, there's also nothing quite like the intoxicating throttle response that you
can get from a properly set up set of DCOE Weber carbs aside a well sorted
twin cam engine.
Perhaps we should rename this thread the last gasp of the petrolheads ?, but it is
Sunday after all
...
Sys68
My spare is an Aprilia tuono rsv 4 Aprc - 158 bhp - about five times the power to weight ratio though not the same noise - as Paul Newman answered to the sweetest thing in life - the sound of a V8 -although I personally prefer a Merlin!
Was passing the end of Southends runway as the memorial flight lifted off.
Bristol's roof open.
The spit and hurricane passed 50 ft above my head and did an orbit joining up with the Lanc.
Ecstasy and legal too
My spare is an Aprilia tuono rsv 4 Aprc - 158 bhp - about five times the power to weight ratio though not the same noise - as Paul Newman answered to the sweetest thing in life - the sound of a V8 -although I personally prefer a Merlin!
Was passing the end of Southends runway as the memorial flight lifted off.
Bristol's roof open.
The spit and hurricane passed 50 ft above my head and did an orbit joining up with the Lanc.
Ecstasy and legal too
My spare is an Aprilia tuono rsv 4 Aprc - 158 bhp - about five times the
power to weight ratio though not the same noise - as Paul Newman answered
to the sweetest thing in life - the sound of a V8 -although I personally
prefer a Merlin! Was passing the end of Southends runway as the memorial
flight lifted off. Bristol's roof open. The spit and hurricane passed 50 ft
above my head and did an orbit joining up with the Lanc. Ecstasy and legal
too.
power to weight ratio though not the same noise - as Paul Newman answered
to the sweetest thing in life - the sound of a V8 -although I personally
prefer a Merlin! Was passing the end of Southends runway as the memorial
flight lifted off. Bristol's roof open. The spit and hurricane passed 50 ft
above my head and did an orbit joining up with the Lanc. Ecstasy and legal
too.
in the days before I could afford to run a car. The old brit bikes weren't
that bad, but no fun in the dead of winter at -5C, Oxford to Portsmouth and
layers of newspaper down the front of the Belstaff. Little brother still
restores bikes though and has for years.
The Merlin is truly art in metal, with a glorious sound. Last heard one
at Wycombe, when a Spit flew over the field at low altitude. Instantly
smitten.
As for V8's, how about that Shelby GT390 in Bullet driving round the car
park at little more than idle rpm, like a spring poised for action. Boys
toys indeed.
The engine is the heart and soul of any vehicle
...
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@ Blind pew.... Ah! Invacar at Thundersley!...killed off instantly when the gov't sensibly decided on the Mobility allowance scheme. Spaz-wagons , we called them in that politically-incorrect age.
Len Pease little shop in a side street near the Elms. just rebuily Sunbeams and Scotts..had a corrugated lean-to next door with several bike projects there on open -view. you couldn't leave them chained and sheeted, nowadays.
@syseng. You' Sir, are a true masochist. trying to stop the noise of an Alfa rusting, whilst struggling to make the engine run with that wonderful brown MM bakelite distributor cap which had built -in tracking.(the earlier form of theft-prevention which pinched the term.)
@ Cwatters....ARM may be a ray of sunshine in a sea of mediocrity, but one swallow..... (as the actress may have said to the bishop.....or was that Monica Lewinsky?
Len Pease little shop in a side street near the Elms. just rebuily Sunbeams and Scotts..had a corrugated lean-to next door with several bike projects there on open -view. you couldn't leave them chained and sheeted, nowadays.
@syseng. You' Sir, are a true masochist. trying to stop the noise of an Alfa rusting, whilst struggling to make the engine run with that wonderful brown MM bakelite distributor cap which had built -in tracking.(the earlier form of theft-prevention which pinched the term.)
@ Cwatters....ARM may be a ray of sunshine in a sea of mediocrity, but one swallow..... (as the actress may have said to the bishop.....or was that Monica Lewinsky?
One of the great joys of owning an older classic is the simplicity. Even working in
electronics, there's nothing easier to fix by the roadside than a set of points or a
simple carburetter.
electronics, there's nothing easier to fix by the roadside than a set of points or a
simple carburetter.
Does anyone remember the "dawn chorus" of the 1970's; when all you could hear in every street in the cold mornings was cars cranking over and occasionally firing, but not starting?
Modern ignition, fuel injection and engine management systems are so reliable these days; engines always start first turn of the key. The ignition adjusts each individual cylinder timing many times a second, and also allow for different fuels, using knock sensors.
Last edited by Uplinker; 2nd Mar 2013 at 08:28.
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what designer ever thought it would be a good idea to have a mechanical switch to distribute 25kV all around an engine, (and tracking and leaking everywhere it shouldn't be), rather than the individual ignition coils we have now, and have a mechanical sliding mechanism to alter the ignition timing?
Oh here we go - and we were all getting on so well.
The transistor was invented in 1948.
Pre transistor ignition could have switched 12V instead of 25kV, and used individual step-up coils to transform 12V to 25kV at each spark plug as they do now. Would have saved a lot of grief.
The transistor was invented in 1948.
Pre transistor ignition could have switched 12V instead of 25kV, and used individual step-up coils to transform 12V to 25kV at each spark plug as they do now. Would have saved a lot of grief.
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[QUOTE][Pre transistor ignition could have switched 12V instead of 25kV, and used individual step-up coils to transform 12V to 25kV at each spark plug as they do now. Would have saved a lot of grief./QUOTE]
ERRM....but that's exactly what they DID do! Primary of coil was energised via points....created strong magnetic flux in coil....points opened, flux colapsed, aided by condenser which also damped arc-over at points....collapse induced high voltage in secondary......now the clever bit
the same shaft was utilised to drive the rotor-arm which merely guided the HT to the appropriate "stud" in the cap which was assigned to the correct cylinder........the cap served more than one purpose It held the HT leads in alignment to catch the HT pulse, kept damp and dirt out and insulated the HT leads from each other and "earth"
Some very early engines had 2 wires in the cylinder-one was cranked to touch the other and mechanically swivelled to form a spark-gap,as it was fed , initially, with battery-voltage (usually very low...6V was standard-practice before WW2 and early 50's saw standardisation of Negative-Ground and 12 volts.
Let's not forget the "Trembler-Coil"..basically an electric-doorbell without the gong and hammer!
When the speed of V-8's made timing marginal and sparks weaker, Prince of Darkness used 2 sets of points in series, thus almost doubling the available Dwell-time....a kludge but it worked reasonably well.
they developed electronic ignition in the late 70's Rolls Shadows and Spirits had a potted board with 4 transistors, in the Distributor body..a n inductive pickup was aligned to an 8-finned sleeve on the central shaft..as a fin passed the pickup it disrupted the current-flow...amplified and used to switch the coil primary....a conventional cap and rotor distributed the spark-current to the appropriate cylinder.
I think Jaguar , triumph stag, Rover/range Rover all used the same system.
After~20 years, the low-signal transistors became unreliable...car wouldn't start or would cut-out , only to restart after a 5-minute rest and often perform faultlessly for days ,before playing-up again.
The transistors used were at the bleeding edge, in their day....modern replacements ~5p each give instant starting and reliable running...
Give the Prince his due, late to the table, but produced the goods when he got there.
Unlike the modern system, one cylinder misfiring didn't bring everything to a grinding halt
Magnetos were used on early aircraft....still used today...100 years of proven ,reliable technology at work
ERRM....but that's exactly what they DID do! Primary of coil was energised via points....created strong magnetic flux in coil....points opened, flux colapsed, aided by condenser which also damped arc-over at points....collapse induced high voltage in secondary......now the clever bit
the same shaft was utilised to drive the rotor-arm which merely guided the HT to the appropriate "stud" in the cap which was assigned to the correct cylinder........the cap served more than one purpose It held the HT leads in alignment to catch the HT pulse, kept damp and dirt out and insulated the HT leads from each other and "earth"
Some very early engines had 2 wires in the cylinder-one was cranked to touch the other and mechanically swivelled to form a spark-gap,as it was fed , initially, with battery-voltage (usually very low...6V was standard-practice before WW2 and early 50's saw standardisation of Negative-Ground and 12 volts.
Let's not forget the "Trembler-Coil"..basically an electric-doorbell without the gong and hammer!
When the speed of V-8's made timing marginal and sparks weaker, Prince of Darkness used 2 sets of points in series, thus almost doubling the available Dwell-time....a kludge but it worked reasonably well.
they developed electronic ignition in the late 70's Rolls Shadows and Spirits had a potted board with 4 transistors, in the Distributor body..a n inductive pickup was aligned to an 8-finned sleeve on the central shaft..as a fin passed the pickup it disrupted the current-flow...amplified and used to switch the coil primary....a conventional cap and rotor distributed the spark-current to the appropriate cylinder.
I think Jaguar , triumph stag, Rover/range Rover all used the same system.
After~20 years, the low-signal transistors became unreliable...car wouldn't start or would cut-out , only to restart after a 5-minute rest and often perform faultlessly for days ,before playing-up again.
The transistors used were at the bleeding edge, in their day....modern replacements ~5p each give instant starting and reliable running...
Give the Prince his due, late to the table, but produced the goods when he got there.
Unlike the modern system, one cylinder misfiring didn't bring everything to a grinding halt
Magnetos were used on early aircraft....still used today...100 years of proven ,reliable technology at work
With respect, Steve, I think you've missed my point:
I was saying distrubute the 12V to each cylinder, NOT the 25kV, and step it up at each spark plug.
I know how the usual points + condenser feeding ONE step-up coil and then distributing the 25kV works, (I was/am an electronics engineer), and have also rebuilt more than a few engines fitted with conventional electro/mechanical ignition in my time. I also know how easily the 25kV can track and short to earth in the usual environment of a car engine bay in the UK.
A buddy who had another SD1 V8 once opened the bonnet at night with the engine running. You should have seen the 'fireworks' display of lots of 25kV leaking and sparking to earth all over the engine! Dunno what make of high tension leads he was using, but obviously not very good ones.......
I was saying distrubute the 12V to each cylinder, NOT the 25kV, and step it up at each spark plug.
I know how the usual points + condenser feeding ONE step-up coil and then distributing the 25kV works, (I was/am an electronics engineer), and have also rebuilt more than a few engines fitted with conventional electro/mechanical ignition in my time. I also know how easily the 25kV can track and short to earth in the usual environment of a car engine bay in the UK.
A buddy who had another SD1 V8 once opened the bonnet at night with the engine running. You should have seen the 'fireworks' display of lots of 25kV leaking and sparking to earth all over the engine! Dunno what make of high tension leads he was using, but obviously not very good ones.......
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A buddy who had another SD1 V8 once opened the bonnet at night with the engine running. You should have seen the 'fireworks' display of lots of 25kV leaking and sparking to earth all over the engine! Dunno what make of high tension leads he was using, but obviously not very good ones.......
been there! customer came in on a dark autumn night...car wouldn't start and he'd bumped it down into an unlit lane without success.Opened the bonnet ,owner cranked and I watched the scale model Aurora borealis under the bonnet... "hold it" ,sprayed a liberal wafting of WD40 over the leads and ignition, with a gentle breeze behind me..."Right, try it" click WHOOMPF...A mighty sheet of blue flame leapt up the windscreen....and it started.
I learned something that night
[quoteI was saying distrubute the 12V to each cylinder, NOT the 25kV, and step it up at each spark plug.][/quote]
given the materials of the day, I think you'd have struggled! multiple points would have been possible, but the coils would have still been large ,given the insulation and manufacturing techniques available, not to mention all the dodgy LT connections needed.
PVC insulated copper leads were the least trouble but they were outlawed when the resistive carbon-impregnated supressor-leads were developed. (they, together with resistor-plugs go "high" and cause all sorts of problems, but some electronic systems NEED the resistance in order to work!-shorting -out a lead can kill the ignition module
The present system is, by and large, less reliable than the single-coil/dizzy model, though i just recently dragged in a Golf with the square-frame coil cooked. (bulkhead mounted)....the ones on top of the plugs get cooked, leading to premature failure...then you HAVE to buy the dedicated stick of all 4.
Fair points, Steve. Ah yes, WD40, the saviour of many an ignition system!* (A friend recommended spraying a can of WD40 all over the engine bay** before each winter. Works a treat! It keeps all the hoses etc as well as the electrics in showroom condition).
* But not as good as the Australian versions: "Start you bastard!", and "For christ sake come on!". Have a look probably on youtube - you will laugh for days!
** do this with a cold engine, switched off, and don't spray the belts too much.
Yes, unfortunately, now that accountants are in charge of every industry, they have made scr*wing us, the public, an artform. Witness; making us pay through the nose for everything and anything they can think of........
* But not as good as the Australian versions: "Start you bastard!", and "For christ sake come on!". Have a look probably on youtube - you will laugh for days!
** do this with a cold engine, switched off, and don't spray the belts too much.
Yes, unfortunately, now that accountants are in charge of every industry, they have made scr*wing us, the public, an artform. Witness; making us pay through the nose for everything and anything they can think of........
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Forgive me if I missed it, but Mr. Ford's Model T (Any color, as long as it's black) had an individual spark coil for each cylinder. 6V battery though, not 12V.
The cute little spark coils were each in a little wooden case, and for decades they were employed by jokesters who wanted to "energize" unwitting victims, either human or animal. I'm sure the coils can still be bought at antique car parts shops.
The cute little spark coils were each in a little wooden case, and for decades they were employed by jokesters who wanted to "energize" unwitting victims, either human or animal. I'm sure the coils can still be bought at antique car parts shops.
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When I was growing up we applied our own "life force energiser" to suitable victims. It was made from a 9V battery, a small electric motor and a 230V to 9V transformer used backwards.
I never realised that Wipac was part of Lucas, even though I worked for Girling which was also part of the Lucas Group. Wipac electrics were even worse than Lucas. I was daft enough to buy the last AJS motorbike ever made, a 350cc with Wipac electrics. That bike was a brilliant illustration of why the British motorcycle industry failed. It was useless in every way imaginable, especially the coil ignition system, unlike the magnetos used at that time by every other motorbike.
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This is particularly useful with electric radiator cooling fans, which are the Achilles' heel of a lot of modern engine designs. A lot of the time when you hear about modern engines being susceptible to head gasket failure, such failures are usually the result of the fan connections getting gunked up and stopping it from cooling the water in the rad when stationary. This leads to hot water being pumped back through the engine, overheating and - eventually - HGF.
The K-Series in the Land Rover Freelander was a special case though, and was down to the Ford engineers not understanding how the K-Series worked (specifically how closely engineered the tolerances were). Admittedly the stock gaskets were pants, but that was a secondary issue. A lot of grief could have been avoided if they'd simply moved the thermostat switch from the radiator out pipe to the in pipe.
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Depends:
Conventions
The electrons, the charge carriers in an electrical circuit, flow in the opposite direction of the conventional electric current.
The symbol for a battery in a circuit diagram.
A flow of positive charges gives the same electric current, and has the same effect in a circuit, as an equal flow of negative charges in the opposite direction. Since current can be the flow of either positive or negative charges, or both, a convention for the direction of current which is independent of the type of charge carriers is needed. The direction of conventional current is defined arbitrarily to be the direction of the flow of positive charges.
In metals, which make up the wires and other conductors in most electrical circuits, the positive charges are immobile, and the charge carriers are electrons. Because the electron carries negative charge, the electron motion in a metal conductor is in the direction opposite to that of conventional (or electric) current.
Reference direction
When analyzing electrical circuits, the actual direction of current through a specific circuit element is usually unknown. Consequently, each circuit element is assigned a current variable with an arbitrarily chosen reference direction. This is usually indicated on the circuit diagram with an arrow next to the current variable. When the circuit is solved, the circuit element currents may have positive or negative values. A negative value means that the actual direction of current through that circuit element is opposite that of the chosen reference direction. In electronic circuits, the reference current directions are often chosen so that all currents are toward ground. This often matches conventional current direction, because in many circuits the power supply voltage is positive with respect to ground.
Conventions
The electrons, the charge carriers in an electrical circuit, flow in the opposite direction of the conventional electric current.
The symbol for a battery in a circuit diagram.
A flow of positive charges gives the same electric current, and has the same effect in a circuit, as an equal flow of negative charges in the opposite direction. Since current can be the flow of either positive or negative charges, or both, a convention for the direction of current which is independent of the type of charge carriers is needed. The direction of conventional current is defined arbitrarily to be the direction of the flow of positive charges.
In metals, which make up the wires and other conductors in most electrical circuits, the positive charges are immobile, and the charge carriers are electrons. Because the electron carries negative charge, the electron motion in a metal conductor is in the direction opposite to that of conventional (or electric) current.
Reference direction
When analyzing electrical circuits, the actual direction of current through a specific circuit element is usually unknown. Consequently, each circuit element is assigned a current variable with an arbitrarily chosen reference direction. This is usually indicated on the circuit diagram with an arrow next to the current variable. When the circuit is solved, the circuit element currents may have positive or negative values. A negative value means that the actual direction of current through that circuit element is opposite that of the chosen reference direction. In electronic circuits, the reference current directions are often chosen so that all currents are toward ground. This often matches conventional current direction, because in many circuits the power supply voltage is positive with respect to ground.
Nicely said Busserday. 
Since electrical current is a flow of electrons, which are negatively charged, then the flow must be from negative to positive.
Just where the idea of "conventional" came from I don't know, but it sure confuses the issue.
Since electrical current is a flow of electrons, which are negatively charged, then the flow must be from negative to positive.
Just where the idea of "conventional" came from I don't know, but it sure confuses the issue.