737NG flaps 10
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737NG flaps 10
Hi there
I need your contributions for this: yesterday as i was on approach about 7 miles from touchdown established on the glide with flaps 5 my speed was a little high for the flap i was using around 176 and the skipper was urging me to quickly slow down to me it wasn't a big deal i'm used to approach a little faster for this flap config,he was pressurizing me to slow down and i then requested for flaps 10 and he told me that flaps 10 isn't to be uses as speed brake and that i should ask him for gear down instead which i did.But going back to the FCTM this is what i've found
uring maneuvering for an approach,when the situation dictates an earlier than normal speed reduction,the use of flaps 10 with gear up is acceptable.
According to my skipper flaps 10 impose a stress on the wing.Anybody to shed a light with me on the matter?
I need your contributions for this: yesterday as i was on approach about 7 miles from touchdown established on the glide with flaps 5 my speed was a little high for the flap i was using around 176 and the skipper was urging me to quickly slow down to me it wasn't a big deal i'm used to approach a little faster for this flap config,he was pressurizing me to slow down and i then requested for flaps 10 and he told me that flaps 10 isn't to be uses as speed brake and that i should ask him for gear down instead which i did.But going back to the FCTM this is what i've found
uring maneuvering for an approach,when the situation dictates an earlier than normal speed reduction,the use of flaps 10 with gear up is acceptable.According to my skipper flaps 10 impose a stress on the wing.Anybody to shed a light with me on the matter?
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safelife Use flaps to slow by extending them close to Vfe and that aircraft WILL develop flap problems eventually. Especially the 737.
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yep extending flaps 10 out at 176 is certainly not going to cause any issues down the line.
Flaps 10 is great if you are struggling to stay on the Glide and a/c's speeding up. This can happen quite often with tailwinds.
Flaps 10 is great if you are struggling to stay on the Glide and a/c's speeding up. This can happen quite often with tailwinds.
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TypeIV -Some captains refuses to extend flaps 1 unless there is like a 25-30kt marigin in still air 
Sometime later the throttles get pushed forward. Guess they didn't need that much drag afterall. 
The slower the speed at extension the easier it is on the a/c and the more efficient it is.
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He wanted you to slow down in a hurry,well at 7 miles speed 176 ,flaps 10 wint do much to you.
Eventhough gear may me a tad too early,it wont hurt too much either,you wre fully configured around 1500 ft..
Maybe it is his comfort zone or maybe there is something we dont know.
Flaps 10 as mentionned is great to help in increasing a tad your descent rate or not allowing speed increase on the glide with winds changing into a tailwind but sometimes the gear is the easiest option.
You will have plenty of time to practice those idle thrust to 500 ft when the time comes,your capt was maybe tired or junior,in anycase you can prove yourself later.
I have let a few fos who insisted to practice idle thrust to the limit perform a go around because at the end they put the gear a tad too late..a good eye opener for fuel saving record..
Eventhough gear may me a tad too early,it wont hurt too much either,you wre fully configured around 1500 ft..
Maybe it is his comfort zone or maybe there is something we dont know.
Flaps 10 as mentionned is great to help in increasing a tad your descent rate or not allowing speed increase on the glide with winds changing into a tailwind but sometimes the gear is the easiest option.
You will have plenty of time to practice those idle thrust to 500 ft when the time comes,your capt was maybe tired or junior,in anycase you can prove yourself later.
I have let a few fos who insisted to practice idle thrust to the limit perform a go around because at the end they put the gear a tad too late..a good eye opener for fuel saving record..
"During manoeuvring for an approach,when the situation dictates an earlier than normal speed reduction,the use of flaps 10 with gear up is acceptable."
That is a great deal different to "extending the flap at high speed, to increase the drag in order to slow down" - which is what you were attempting, and the Captain was warning against.
If you need drag, because you are fast - add drag.
If you need lift, because you are reducing speed - extend the flap.
Your Captain was correct.
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Note that this statement says that using the flap to achieve a lower speed while manoeuvring, while keeping the gear up, is OK.
That is a great deal different to "extending the flap at high speed, to increase the drag in order to slow down" - which is what you were attempting, and the Captain was warning against.
That is a great deal different to "extending the flap at high speed, to increase the drag in order to slow down" - which is what you were attempting, and the Captain was warning against.
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"During manoeuvring for an approach,when the situation dictates an earlier than normal speed reduction,the use of flaps 10 with gear up is acceptable."
You say the speed was a little high at F5; i.e. it was above the green bug for your weight, but it was not too high for the flap itself. I assume this was the scenario and the speed was not increasing. F5 idle thrust will hold a 3' glide path and thus not slow you down. The next action I assume was going to be gear down F15 about 4nm out. I don't know your weight, but I guess you were about 10kts too fast. So why not put the gear down at 5nm? That'll achieve you being at the correct speed for F15 at 4nm and use less fuel than dangling the Dunlops too early. There was no need to panic. F10, with the LED's going to full ext is perfectly acceptable, and is a good way to lose 10-15kts in 3-4nm. However, if your captain wanted to slow down 10kts in 3nm why not use that which is designed to do it = speed brakes. OK, I know, they are not too effective at slow speeds, but they will work over 3nm for such small adjustments. They are variable drag, while the gear is fixed drag. Once down it is down. Too early means more fuel & noise.
note: if at 7nm you are high & fast and not sure if your increased ROD at F5 (V/S and thus speed increase) will save the day, then gear is a great idea. I find too many low hour F/O's reluctant to use it thinking they'll get away with it by 500'. Their neck hairs have not yet become prickly enough. When they do start to twitch it is often too late.
You say the speed was a little high at F5; i.e. it was above the green bug for your weight, but it was not too high for the flap itself. I assume this was the scenario and the speed was not increasing. F5 idle thrust will hold a 3' glide path and thus not slow you down. The next action I assume was going to be gear down F15 about 4nm out. I don't know your weight, but I guess you were about 10kts too fast. So why not put the gear down at 5nm? That'll achieve you being at the correct speed for F15 at 4nm and use less fuel than dangling the Dunlops too early. There was no need to panic. F10, with the LED's going to full ext is perfectly acceptable, and is a good way to lose 10-15kts in 3-4nm. However, if your captain wanted to slow down 10kts in 3nm why not use that which is designed to do it = speed brakes. OK, I know, they are not too effective at slow speeds, but they will work over 3nm for such small adjustments. They are variable drag, while the gear is fixed drag. Once down it is down. Too early means more fuel & noise.
note: if at 7nm you are high & fast and not sure if your increased ROD at F5 (V/S and thus speed increase) will save the day, then gear is a great idea. I find too many low hour F/O's reluctant to use it thinking they'll get away with it by 500'. Their neck hairs have not yet become prickly enough. When they do start to twitch it is often too late.
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F10, with the LED's going to full ext is perfectly acceptable, and is a good way to lose 10-15kts in 3-4nm.
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Flaps 10 work pretty well with the SFP birds. With the non SFPs with the LEDs in the FE position the jets slows a tad too much requiring a bit of thrust for the G/S... about 40% n1.
Heck if Mr. or Mrs. Boeing did'nt want us to use Flaps 10, then why put a detent there
.
. With the non SFPs with the LEDs in the FE position the jets slows a tad too much requiring a bit of thrust for the G/S... about 40% n1.Heck if Mr. or Mrs. Boeing did'nt want us to use Flaps 10, then why put a detent there
.
Last edited by captjns; 26th Jan 2013 at 15:27.
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"Heck if Mr. or Mrs. Boeing did'nt want us to use Flaps 10, then why put a detent there."
I'd always thought it was left over from B732 which had a fixed speed schedule of 210/190/180/170/160/150 for up/F1/F2/F5/F10/F15. In USA I believe ATC liked to use these speeds for 'pushing tin' and crating & maintaining correct spacing. I believe 160kts was a common speed on approach, as indeed it is at many UK airports.
I'd always thought it was left over from B732 which had a fixed speed schedule of 210/190/180/170/160/150 for up/F1/F2/F5/F10/F15. In USA I believe ATC liked to use these speeds for 'pushing tin' and crating & maintaining correct spacing. I believe 160kts was a common speed on approach, as indeed it is at many UK airports.
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Of course its perfectly acceptable, just saying that the SFP 800s dont go to full extent at F10. Many airlines chose those nowadays as there is usually not much if any of an extra cost, depending on price negotiation during purchase of course. In "my" outfit nearly all 800s now are equipped that way, so for us it is unusual to fly ones with the old LE schedule.
At the end of the day you were only two minutes from touchdown and the Captain wanted you to dump the gear. Just do it and it is no big deal. Half the time he or she may have seen something you missed while you were concentrating on your low drag approach anyway ie an aircraft taking their time to line up or a tailwind starting to come in or the preceding aircraft looking like they'l miss their high speed. Or, that particular Captain may just be more conservative than you and that is how they operate. Or, they may have just had to do a go around last week because of an FO who was less highly skilled than yourself cocked it up, so now they are a little cautious.
Basically if the Captain thinks it's a good idea to take the gear at 2100ft then who's place is it to say otherwise?
The main thing is that it should not be taken personally. It is not a slight on your ability to fly an approach, it is simply what the PIC thinks is best at that moment. Don't hold it against them for being conservative, one day you might decide to be a fraction more conservative too.....that happens.
Basically if the Captain thinks it's a good idea to take the gear at 2100ft then who's place is it to say otherwise?
The main thing is that it should not be taken personally. It is not a slight on your ability to fly an approach, it is simply what the PIC thinks is best at that moment. Don't hold it against them for being conservative, one day you might decide to be a fraction more conservative too.....that happens.