Visual approach then GA

[aterpster]

and for that awful moment when you can't get through to ATC due to frequency congestion? what do you do then? You safely navigate the plane away from terrain and the most likely way to do it is using the published missed.

That would be using emergency authority, which is fine but may result in some unwanted dialogue with the FAA after the fact.

The first "rule" is to not accept a visual approach in weather conditions that are marginal for your aircraft.

[sevenstrokeroll]

aterpster

yes, I agree with you...if you are visual and go into cloud for that moment you are either violating regulations or acting under the emergency authority of the pilot in command. flying a published missed approach would give you terrain clearance. in fact it may be the ONLY way to avoid terrain.

now I also agree with you...don't take a visual if you are in marginal conditions.

and I did mention...if you are taking it in marginal conditions, take command and advise/request alternative instructions.

[Busserday]

Why would you take a visual in anything but good VFR conditions, I am reluctant to do even that, and once you've accepted the visual, you have cancelled your IFR flight plan and are obliged to observe the VFR flight rules. Quite simple.

[deefer dog]

Busserday, I have a feeling that IFR is not actually cancelled when cleared for a visual. IFR is only cancelled when acknowledged with the time of it changing to Special or VFR. If this is accepted, and it is the case in the USA for sure that a visual does NOT cancel IFR, then as the flight is still IFR there is nothing to restrict the missed approach procedure taking you back into the controlled airspace that you may, by descent, have exited for the visual approach.

Having stated this, I really don't know the absolute answer, and I suspect that maybe nobody does. In line with European examining techniques it would therefore make an excellent question to use as a trap!

[Pub User]

Why would you take a visual in anything but good VFR conditions,

You wouldn't, unless you were properly insane.

once you've accepted the visual, you have cancelled your IFR flight plan and are obliged to observe the VFR flight rules

That's not correct. Cancelling an IFR flight plan does not happen incidentally like that; it must be a formal and acknowledged communication.

[Busserday]

Flying with feeling is great it is always a good idea to at least know what rules one is busting:
ICAO approved:
9.6.2 Visual Approach
A visual approach is an approach wherein an aircraft on an IFR flight plan (FP), operating in VMC under the control of ATC and having ATC authorization, may proceed to the destination airport.
To gain operational advantages in a radar environment, the pilot may request or ATC may initiate a visual approach, provided that:

1. the reported ceiling is at least 500 ft above the established minimum IFR altitude and the ground visibility is at least 3 SM;
2. the pilot reports sighting the airport (controlled or uncontrolled); and
3. at a controlled airport:

1. the pilot reports sighting the preceding aircraft and is instructed by ATC to follow or maintain visual separation from that aircraft; or
2. the pilot reports sighting the airport but not the preceding aircraft, in which case ATC will ensure separation from the preceding aircraft until:

1. the preceding aircraft has landed; or
2. the pilot has sighted the preceding aircraft and been instructed to follow or maintain visual separation from it.

ATC considers acceptance of a visual approach clearance as acknowledgement that the pilot should be responsible for:

1. at controlled airports, maintaining visual separation from the preceding aircraft that the pilot is instructed to follow or from which the pilot is instructed to maintain visual separation;
2. maintaining adequate wake turbulence separation;
3. navigating to the final approach;
4. adhering to published noise abatement procedures and complying with any restrictions that may apply to Class F airspace; and
5. at uncontrolled airports, maintaining appropriate separation from VFR traffic that, in many cases, will not be known to ATC.

A visual approach is not an IAP and therefore has no missed approach segment. If a go-around is necessary for any reason, aircraft operating at controlled airports will be issued an appropriate advisory/clearance/instruction by the tower. At uncontrolled airports, aircraft crews are required to remain clear of clouds and are expected to complete a landing as soon as possible. If a landing cannot be accomplished, the aircraft crew is required to remain clear of clouds, maintain separation from other airport traffic and is expected to contact ATC as soon as possible for further clearance. ATC separation from other IFR aircraft is only assured once further ATC clearance has been received and acknowledged by the aircraft crew.

[FlightPathOBN]

Well, while the visual missed procedure is not published, most of the aerodromes follow the IFR procedure on approach, with visual rules until conditions warrant IFR. (everywhere BUT the US)
I supposed that one would review in the brief, what is published for the missed, and at least plan on using whatever that procedure is, to be somewhat assured of the obstacle clearance. Seems like a good situational awareness procedure if nothing else.

[aterpster]

FltPathOBN:

Read the post immediately above you cited from an ICAO document. Reads pretty much like the FAA's AIM:

ICAO Cite:

A visual approach is not an IAP and therefore has no missed approach segment. If a go-around is necessary for any reason, aircraft operating at controlled airports will be issued an appropriate advisory/clearance/instruction by the tower. At uncontrolled airports, aircraft crews are required to remain clear of clouds and are expected to complete a landing as soon as possible. If a landing cannot be accomplished, the aircraft crew is required to remain clear of clouds, maintain separation from other airport traffic and is expected to contact ATC as soon as possible for further clearance. ATC separation from other IFR aircraft is only assured once further ATC clearance has been received and acknowledged by the aircraft crew.

[FlightPathOBN]

Terpster,

I understand that, in the US.

While in the US 80% of approach procedures are instrument,
worldwide, 80% of approach procedures are visual.

Worldwide, most IAP missed are straight ahead to 4000 and await ATC, unless there are obstacle issues.

Therefore, it seems prudent to look at the published missed approach procedure for the runway, to see if there are any issues.

[aterpster]

I understand that, in the US.

The cite is from ICAO.

[Check Airman]

I'm of the opinion that if the published missed is good enough for IMC, it's good enough for VMC. If I have to abandon a visual, the published missed is the best option until ATC instructs otherwise.

[Busserday]

It is not your airspace and you had best remain visual and if that is not possible why on earth are you accepting a clearance for a visual approach?

[aviatorhi]

You wouldn't, unless you were properly insane.

I'm insane.

And, no, it's not my own opinion, it's a pragmatic explanation of what to expect when going around off a botched visual. Note that I'm not saying a go around is unacceptable, I'm saying that, when under direct control by ATC, it's best to obtain instructions rather than willy nilly flying the published missed. A perfect example of this is HNL, where flying the published missed off the ILS 4R will put you right into the middle of departing traffic from 8R.

[9.G]

busserday cited Canucks regs not ICAO including the paragraph number.

6.5.3 Visual Approach
6.5.3.1 Subject to the conditions in 6.5.3.3, clearance for an IFR flight to execute a visual approach may be requested by a flight crew or initiated by the controller. In the latter case, the concurrence of the flight crew shall be required.
6.5.3.3 An IFR flight may be cleared to execute a visual approach provided that the pilot can maintain visual reference to the terrain and;
a. the reported ceiling is at or above the level of the beginning of the initial approach segment for the aircraft so cleared; or
b. the pilot reports at the level of the beginning of the initial approach segment or at any time during the instrument approach procedure that the meteorological conditions are such that with reasonable assurance a visual approach and landing can be completed.
6.5.3.4 Separation shall be provided between an aircraft cleared to execute a visual approach and other arriv- ing and departing aircraft.
6.5.3.5 For successive visual approaches, separation shall be maintained by the controller until the pilot of a succeeding aircraft reports having the preceding aircraft in sight. The aircraft shall then be instructed to follow and maintain own separation from the preceding aircraft. When both aircraft are of a heavy wake turbulence category, or the preceding aircraft is of a heavier wake turbulence category than the following, and the distance between the aircraft is less than the appropriate wake turbulence minimum, the controller shall issue a caution of possible wake turbulence. The pilot-in-command of the aircraft concerned shall be responsible for ensuring that the spacing from a preceding aircraft of a heavier wake turbulence category is acceptable. If it is determined that additional spacing is required, the flight crew shall inform the ATC unit accordingly, stating their requirements.

This is ICAO 4444 doc.

@ aviatorhi, did you ever look outside the window in HNL? There's no other way but to turn right from 04 or 08 for that matter. Have a look at the MSA and terrain picture again, will ya.

[Busserday]

I am not professing to not fly the appropriate track during a visual go around, what I am saying is that once on a visual approach, and this is getting a little obtuse now, that you are no longer under IFR. Terrain clearance and maintaining VMC until appropriate communication is established is the expectation.
Regardless, choosing to expedite your arrival in less than optimum conditions may increase your work load and leave you in a position that you'd rather not be.
As far as protecting airspace from other traffic, it is not likely that you will have a problem with published missed approaches, just keep in mind you will need a clearance at some point if you wind up IMC.
And yes, been to to HNL many times and didn't expect to go to ALANA or GECKO and hold if I had a pull up on a visual; clear the terrain, likely as per the published miss and anticipate a vector downwind.
Aviate, navigate, communicate.
BD

[9.G]

what I am saying is that once on a visual approach, and this is getting a little obtuse now, that you are no longer under IFR.

Absolutely NOT. Flying visual approach you remain under IFR at all times. Terrain clearance is pilot's responsibility separation from other traffic is ATC's responsibility unless pilot requests visual separation from other identified traffic. see 6.5.3.4 Separation shall be provided between an aircraft cleared to execute a visual approach and other arriv- ing and departing aircraft.

No ATC will ever give takeoff clearance on adjacent runway e.g dep 04 HNL till the aircraft shooting a visual on 08 has touched down safely. There's still such thing as separation applicable to any controlled airdrome.

[Busserday]

Well obviously we are not about to agree on the nuances of this subject.
6.5.3.3 An IFR flight may be cleared to execute a visual approach provided that the pilot can maintain visual reference to the terrain
Take the visual and enjoy.

[Bengerman]

Check Airman...

I'm of the opinion that if the published missed is good enough for IMC, it's good enough for VMC. If I have to abandon a visual, the published missed is the best option until ATC instructs otherwise.



4th Jun 2012 00:17

So if you flew into, say, Milan Malpensa onto 35R as a visual approach would you do the G/A for ILS Y or ILS Z......they are different!

[aviatorhi]

@ aviatorhi, did you ever look outside the window in HNL? There's no other way but to turn right from 04 or 08 for that matter. Have a look at the MSA and terrain picture again, will ya.

No I never look outside.

Typically if you go missed with traffic rolling on 08R tower will ask you for heading 090 until clear of traffic then send you southbound.

You could also turn left, but there is a preference to not sent jets over the middle of the island, noise abatement I suspect.

[FlightPathOBN]

I think its simply about situational awareness, if you are aware of the published missed, at least you have some idea of the obstacle clearance and other traffic.
For a while, we were designing RNP finals with a visual missed to get the DA down to something that was reasonable.