AF 447 Thread No. 8
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From the BEA report on the Tarom incident:
It occurs to me that the Captain may have been momentarily uncertain of the direction to the nearest horizon. They were 60 degrees nose up after all.
Add a little roll and he may not have been able to see the horizon initially. This might explain the otherwise inexplicable pitch control motions.
Just before the stall, the Captain pulled the control column fully back, bringing the elevator to 23 degrees nose up. He then pushed it fully forward, while continuing to counter the roll of 75 degrees to the right with the ailerons. The statistical data shows that, when confronted by a stall, in 80% of cases, pilots pull back the control column, in a sort of reflex movement, which continues the loss of control.
Add a little roll and he may not have been able to see the horizon initially. This might explain the otherwise inexplicable pitch control motions.
Last edited by Machinbird; 17th Jun 2012 at 01:20. Reason: Add afterthought
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Push it real good
My Dear Sirs, Mesdames, (and Any Others),
It has come to our attention that this article (posted previously) bears repeating.
Technique: The 'Panic Pull'
Thank you for your attention to this important matter.
Yours Ever,
Etc., etc. (Ret.)
It has come to our attention that this article (posted previously) bears repeating.
Technique: The 'Panic Pull'
Thank you for your attention to this important matter.
Yours Ever,
Etc., etc. (Ret.)
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Stick and Rudder was one of my favorite books learning to fly. Yes we all needed to know what to do and that book was very helpful. Most of my flying through commercial pilot was reading books, no ground school. I taught my self aerobatics by reading Roll around a Point by Dwayne Cole. I ended up teaching Art Scholls aerobatics class at Flabob airport in Riverside California with a one hour brush up with Art. He did the inverted spin scene or tried to in Top Gun when Goose was killed. He crashed into the Pacific off of San Clamente doing the filming. Notice at the end of Top Gun this is dedicated to the memory of Art Scholl.
Bob Hoover was a good friend of Art's. He would land at Flabob on one wheel in his Shrike just because he wanted to see him. What a great guy Bob is. We see him every year at the Reno Air Races.
I have been blessed with many legends in aviation knowing them personally.
I couldn't be happier with how my aviation career went from crop dusting to aerobatics to corporate jets and finally wide body international flying.
Bob Hoover was a good friend of Art's. He would land at Flabob on one wheel in his Shrike just because he wanted to see him. What a great guy Bob is. We see him every year at the Reno Air Races.
I have been blessed with many legends in aviation knowing them personally.
I couldn't be happier with how my aviation career went from crop dusting to aerobatics to corporate jets and finally wide body international flying.
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I thought I should add my last flight out of Miami to Tegucigalpa, Honduras with my FA wife in the jump seat. Flightlevel350.com: Free Aviation Videos, Airplane Videos and Cockpit Videos
search mhtg and look about 6 videos down with a cockpit view out of a 757 for my final 6 minutes. What a great career. This is claimed the most dangerous airport for jets in the world but I flew in there over 600 times and loved it. Never had a problem.
search mhtg and look about 6 videos down with a cockpit view out of a 757 for my final 6 minutes. What a great career. This is claimed the most dangerous airport for jets in the world but I flew in there over 600 times and loved it. Never had a problem.
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The most interesting part of the Rosay interview was this:
I read this as: When one loses the speed indications in cruise do nothing (except keep the aircraft trucking on down the line.) It doesn't mean sit on your hands however.
English translation [& notes] by AZR:
The kind of situation that was encountered [loss of speed indication] is a situation that has nothing ... exceptional.
Besides ... when one loses the speed indications, in cruise eh, I think this is the simplest procedure to apply: one must do nothing. And it [the plane] will continue to fly like this for much longer.
The kind of situation that was encountered [loss of speed indication] is a situation that has nothing ... exceptional.
Besides ... when one loses the speed indications, in cruise eh, I think this is the simplest procedure to apply: one must do nothing. And it [the plane] will continue to fly like this for much longer.
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Mr. Bubbers
Congratulations on an enviable (by me anyway) career. Very impressive.
The video scared the crap outta me. You did that 600 times and lived!?
The video scared the crap outta me. You did that 600 times and lived!?
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*de-lurk*
Bubbers - I understand what you're saying, but if we're honest you're talking a different generation here, with a lot more ex-military flyers. I realise this is something of a generalisation, but from what I've read and been told, the pros of which include a tendency for better stick-and-rudder skills and knowledge of aeronautical fundamentals, the cons including occasional issues with CRM. In the US, you're also talking about a lot of pilots who came up through the crop-dusting route and the like, which comes with a lot more hands-on experience.
The fact is that over time the demographic has changed, and the explosion in numbers of jet transports and jumps in technology since the '60s means that less time is spent learning the basics and more on operating and managing the systems - which has led to a significant increase in things like "panic pulls" from line-qualified pilots. When talking of pulling into a stall, don't forget Birgenair 301 and Palm 90, neither of which involved AF or Airbus. This is an industry-wide trend and always has been.
That said, your career makes for great reading, and it's clear that you've always striven to do the right thing - for that alone my cap would be doffed.
I was wondering - I realise it's a UK document, but did you ever read Davies' "Handling The Big Jets"? I'd be interested to know how it compares with the material more prevalent in the US from the same period.
Lyman : You were asking about the sim experience a week or so back. I can't really add anything to what I originally wrote, so for convenience I'll provide the links here:
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/46062...ml#post6793521
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/46839...ml#post6794612
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/46839...ml#post6794908
*re-lurk*
Bubbers - I understand what you're saying, but if we're honest you're talking a different generation here, with a lot more ex-military flyers. I realise this is something of a generalisation, but from what I've read and been told, the pros of which include a tendency for better stick-and-rudder skills and knowledge of aeronautical fundamentals, the cons including occasional issues with CRM. In the US, you're also talking about a lot of pilots who came up through the crop-dusting route and the like, which comes with a lot more hands-on experience.
The fact is that over time the demographic has changed, and the explosion in numbers of jet transports and jumps in technology since the '60s means that less time is spent learning the basics and more on operating and managing the systems - which has led to a significant increase in things like "panic pulls" from line-qualified pilots. When talking of pulling into a stall, don't forget Birgenair 301 and Palm 90, neither of which involved AF or Airbus. This is an industry-wide trend and always has been.
That said, your career makes for great reading, and it's clear that you've always striven to do the right thing - for that alone my cap would be doffed.
I was wondering - I realise it's a UK document, but did you ever read Davies' "Handling The Big Jets"? I'd be interested to know how it compares with the material more prevalent in the US from the same period.
Lyman : You were asking about the sim experience a week or so back. I can't really add anything to what I originally wrote, so for convenience I'll provide the links here:
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/46062...ml#post6793521
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/46839...ml#post6794612
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/46839...ml#post6794908
*re-lurk*
Last edited by DozyWannabe; 17th Jun 2012 at 14:08.
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C-star for dummies (2)
I have deleted this post pending correction of an error. Apologies for any confusion.
Last edited by HazelNuts39; 22nd Jun 2012 at 14:48. Reason: Error
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Originally Posted by Bubbers
Yes, I lived and loved every bit of it. That is the most fun airport in the world. You just can't get sloppy on the approach. Just do it right.
Did you also fly in at night?
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HN, be intrested! what means NoseDown faktor 0.85?
if every spring in the SS was right and his seat in a good position, than he just shorted his arm for 20 sec with a lot of adrenalin....
if every spring in the SS was right and his seat in a good position, than he just shorted his arm for 20 sec with a lot of adrenalin....
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Originally Posted by grity
HN, be intrested! what means NoseDown faktor 0.85?
Last edited by HazelNuts39; 19th Jun 2012 at 13:01. Reason: revised SS scale ongraph
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Handling the big jets was always with me. I learned a lot from it. All of my knowledge came from books through commercial license and aerobatics. I took an instrument course but it was pretty pathetic. That was the first ground school I attended. As I said I had an early interview with united with less than 200 hrs and am so glad I didn't get hired. I would have missed out on learning how to fly. I learned how to fly by gradually going up through the ranks, not as a 727 FE, Going from single engine to multi engine to charter jets to corporate jets finally airlines, I was prepared.
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Sorry, coming back too late!
My previous post # 1296
Bubbers44
And sevenstrokeroll
Please, would you try to understand what I am trying to say
Lyman , Machinbird and Organfreak
Thanks a lot understanding my post.
Even if I wrote in a previous message <<stupid pilots >>Â, notice that quotes are very important.
(and -please - obviously replace this in the context)
In fact, pilots never understood the vessel was stalled.
' we have engine thrust ! '
In fact, the vessel, with 13 degrees THS NU, was ' parachuted '.
For me, Tarom report raised very important points (As QF72, Perpignan ...).
Did you read Tarom BEAs report?
HN39
Your graphic is very interesting.
It recalls me <<Owain Glyndwr - THS Equivalent Elevator Angle>>
(sorry, I am not able to put the link at this time)
Regards
My previous post # 1296
Bubbers44
None of my hundreds of students died by pulling up in a stall.
Rethink your 80% theory.
Rethink your 80% theory.
I agree with bubbers.
Lyman , Machinbird and Organfreak
Thanks a lot understanding my post.
Even if I wrote in a previous message <<stupid pilots >>Â, notice that quotes are very important.
(and -please - obviously replace this in the context)
In fact, pilots never understood the vessel was stalled.
' we have engine thrust ! '
In fact, the vessel, with 13 degrees THS NU, was ' parachuted '.
For me, Tarom report raised very important points (As QF72, Perpignan ...).
Did you read Tarom BEAs report?
In its analysis of this accident, the commission has been led to note deficiencies in the effectiveness of the display to the flight crew of the various active modes, the references used, actions in progress and targets pursued with regard to the Autopilot devices, notably in the vertical plane. Most particularly, in the opinion of the commission, the total information presented is inadequate in terms of its likelihood of alerting a crew, who at a given moment have an incorrect mental picture of the state of the automatic devices.
In practice, a good number of observations made by the commission apply to one degree or another to all new-generation aircraft
Consequently, the commission recommends that for all new-generation aircraft:
- consideration should be given by the competent authorities and organizations with a view to improving, in a standardized fashion on an international basis, the presentation and the symbols for displays and information relating to the different Autopilot active modes, notably in the vertical plane.
[/I]
In practice, a good number of observations made by the commission apply to one degree or another to all new-generation aircraft
Consequently, the commission recommends that for all new-generation aircraft:
- consideration should be given by the competent authorities and organizations with a view to improving, in a standardized fashion on an international basis, the presentation and the symbols for displays and information relating to the different Autopilot active modes, notably in the vertical plane.
[/I]
Your graphic is very interesting.
It recalls me <<Owain Glyndwr - THS Equivalent Elevator Angle>>
(sorry, I am not able to put the link at this time)
Regards
Last edited by NeoFit; 17th Jun 2012 at 22:41. Reason: Typo problem -sorry-
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NU or ND
When giving "Joyrides" ( pleasure flights ) my first flying job, I used to be asked to "Loop-the-loop" by bolder holiday makers. No-one asked for a Bunt, perhaps they did not know the word. If ever I was slightly harsh in putting the nose down, there would be squeals - never if I pulled the nose up by the same degree. ( I was not cleared for aerobatic flights by my employer and neither was the aircraft. It was a very new Licence - precious to me !)
I believe that around 1916, Frederick Lindemann had asked a number of Royal Flying Corps and Royal Naval Air Service pilot trainees, who had crashed, but were now in hospital being mended after crashes ( many aircraft of that era broke up on hitting the ground). A number reported that they had stalled and /or spun whilst holding back on the joystick as hard as they could, to avoid hitting the ground...
Does anyone know the logic used by the makers of lifts (Elevators) to control the rates of acceleration both up and down, particularly in very tall buildings ? ( I would expect that the rate going down might be more gradual than going up.)
I believe that around 1916, Frederick Lindemann had asked a number of Royal Flying Corps and Royal Naval Air Service pilot trainees, who had crashed, but were now in hospital being mended after crashes ( many aircraft of that era broke up on hitting the ground). A number reported that they had stalled and /or spun whilst holding back on the joystick as hard as they could, to avoid hitting the ground...
Does anyone know the logic used by the makers of lifts (Elevators) to control the rates of acceleration both up and down, particularly in very tall buildings ? ( I would expect that the rate going down might be more gradual than going up.)
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I wish the new pilots could learn how to fly like we did back then. They are missing out on some very important experience that is hard to get now. We all want to be the best at what we do.
The new pilots have a difficult time getting the experience we got. With the automation even when they get their first job they probably rarely hand fly so become autopilot monitors. Flying skills deteriorate rapidly monitoring autopilots. I have been there so shut them off to maintain pilot skills. I have been told airlines discourage hand flying automatic airplanes, that is sad.
Pilots, do not let automation control your airplane, you control it. Disconnect everything and make sure you are really in control. If you don't you become an autopilot monitor, not a pilot. I am not kidding on this one.
The new pilots have a difficult time getting the experience we got. With the automation even when they get their first job they probably rarely hand fly so become autopilot monitors. Flying skills deteriorate rapidly monitoring autopilots. I have been there so shut them off to maintain pilot skills. I have been told airlines discourage hand flying automatic airplanes, that is sad.
Pilots, do not let automation control your airplane, you control it. Disconnect everything and make sure you are really in control. If you don't you become an autopilot monitor, not a pilot. I am not kidding on this one.
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We were not authorized to land at TGU at night or take off. We had to visually avoid the terrain so couldn't operate then. General aviation aircraft could. My buddy who opperated our airline emails me all the time from Tegucigalpa runs another airline now out of there but don't think they can land at night either.
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dozzywanabe
you mentioned "handling the big jets'
I read it about 30 years ago...still have a copy and even wrote to the author...he was kind enough to write back and I still have his letter to me.
you mentioned a US equivilent...I would say: "Fly the Wing" by Webb is every bit as good...maybe a bit more oomphy and less british...but he was an american (eastern airlines) pilot. Flew DC9's. I had the great good fortune to track him down and spoke with him for over an hour on the phone...he echoed many of the things that bubbers and I have been saying. he paid me the supreme compliment saying: 'you get it.
if money permited, I would take up a perspective pilot...tell him to fly from Pittsburgh to Chicago in a plane he had never flown. I would tell him I would handle the checklists and systems..he had to navigate and aviate.
and NO FREIGGN auto pilot.
hand fly at the max authorized altitude (remember when we called it the service ceiling?)
I would see how he could trim her up at altitude...that tells me alot about a flyer!
you mentioned "handling the big jets'
I read it about 30 years ago...still have a copy and even wrote to the author...he was kind enough to write back and I still have his letter to me.
you mentioned a US equivilent...I would say: "Fly the Wing" by Webb is every bit as good...maybe a bit more oomphy and less british...but he was an american (eastern airlines) pilot. Flew DC9's. I had the great good fortune to track him down and spoke with him for over an hour on the phone...he echoed many of the things that bubbers and I have been saying. he paid me the supreme compliment saying: 'you get it.
if money permited, I would take up a perspective pilot...tell him to fly from Pittsburgh to Chicago in a plane he had never flown. I would tell him I would handle the checklists and systems..he had to navigate and aviate.
and NO FREIGGN auto pilot.
hand fly at the max authorized altitude (remember when we called it the service ceiling?)
I would see how he could trim her up at altitude...that tells me alot about a flyer!