Use of TOGA with Flex speeds

[nitpicker330]

Just ran the numbers in our RTOW computer for the same weight, field conditions Flap setting etc with the only change being Flex v TOGA.

Flex gave a V1 of 19 kts faster
Flex gave a Vr of 15 kts faster
Flex gave a V2 of 13 kts faster

So flying at TOGA thrust but retaining Flex speeds is conservative and thanks to the document mentioned above seems to be ok with AB.

However that being said unless I had a very good reason to get airborne ASAP I would take a moment and re do the numbers.

[sabenaboy]

@nitpicker330

You're welcome!

I was just about to post a link to Wikipedia's definition of "nitpicking"

Best regards,
Sabenaboy

[de facto]

I said in my first post that using toga with atm speeds may be safe but wrong...wrong as the speeds dont correspond to the thrust ..call me pedantic.
Id rather use the most correct speeds for the thrust used...if you reject at your higher v1 speed (atm) with full thrust and blow a tire,you will then have to explain why your v1speed at which you rejected was higher...in that case you should have continued,,,,,hence the parallel with the v1 speed correction for wet runways.
I cover my a@@@ then i think about traffic behind..
Performance wise we agree.

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi de facto,

I cover my a@@@ then i think about traffic behind..

If you insist on changing your V speeds just because you've decided to use TOGA rather than Flex, please can you do both of those calculations at the gate before you move, so I don't have to wait behind you.

[de facto]

Again it takes a few secs to do so,,,,fmc beauty..now you wont have time to get close enough...
Wet speeds are calculated in advance.
At age 63,,,believe me youll still be at the gate while ill be lining up for takeoff

[noip]

The original question is (as I understand it) .. "Is it safe to increase takeoff thrust to TOGA from Flex?".

Given the lack of other information, I'll make some assumptions.

• We are talking Airbus.
• Flex for one Airbus type is the same as Flex for another.

The Flex thrust rating on Airbus is effectively an assumed temperature reduced thrust from TOGA - ie Flex with no assumed temperature is the same as TOGA. Given this, the min control speeds that are used in the Flex calculation are the TOGA speeds.

• So, is it safe? Yes. You will have reduced field length requirements, will reach your V speeds faster and have improved climb gradients.
• Would you get a better result recalculating? Yes. You will get V speeds more appropriate to your situation.

So we have two considerations ... Is it Safe ... Is there a better way ...


For what it is worth.


N

[Gutter Airways]

Thank you for the input guys.

Like nitpicker330, I also ran a couple of calculations through the LPC yesterday.

These are the results I got. It should be noted, these results are based on a TORA of 3500m, sea-level, and an airfield without any high obstacles or terrain, ISA temperature and a QNH of 1004. I am mentioning this, incase it is of significance in analysing the results.

The Flex calculation gave the following speeds:

Flex 57
V1: 152
V2: 152
VR: 154

(min V1 - 152, min V2 - 120, Vmcg - 113)

TOGA gave the following speeds:

V1: 141
V2: 142
VR: 145

(min V1 - 120, min V2 - 120, Vmcg - 113)

Whilst I understand the logic of reaching the Flex V1 speed sooner on the runway with TOGA thrust, hence greater remaining stopping distance, I would like to ask about the decision to stop or go. It would seem you could end up in a situation, with TOGA thrust but Flex speeds, where you stop above what would be the normal V1 for that thrust setting. Any comments on this?

Secondly, I do not understand why the minimum V1 is so high for the Flex calculation.

Thank you once again for your insight.

[de facto]

Whilst I understand the logic of reaching the Flex V1 speed sooner on the runway with TOGA thrust, hence greater remaining stopping distance, I would like to ask about the decision to stop or go. It would seem you could end up in a situation, with TOGA thrust but Flex speeds, where you stop above what would be the normal V1 for that thrust setting. Any comments on this?

Read my post!

I said in my first post that using toga with atm speeds may be safe but wrong...wrong as the speeds dont correspond to the thrust ..call me pedantic.
Id rather use the most correct speeds for the thrust used...if you reject at your higher v1 speed (atm) with full thrust and blow a tire,you will then have to explain why your v1speed at which you rejected was higher...in that case you should have continued,,,,,hence the parallel with the v1 speed correction for wet runways

For your second question, your V1 is higher but your stopping distance from point of reject will be same as no atm because actual outside air is what counts.(TAS really).
You obviously in that case have a very long runway and light weight.

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi

I do not understand why the minimum V1 is so high for the Flex calculation.

By Flexing, you have matched your performance to the runway length available so effectively end up with a Balanced Field Length where the Min V1 (continue) & Max V1 (stop) are coincidental.

When using TOGA you have more performance, so even at the min V1 (continue) you will be able to accelerate within the runway length available to VR. With TOGA on the long runway you now have a range of V1s and usually the software chooses the middle one.

[Gutter Airways]

de facto, sorry mate, I missed your post pointing out the same earlier.

It would therefore seem, the practice is wrong in that case.

Any other opinions appreciated.

[Gutter Airways]

rudderrudderrat, thank you for the clear and concise explanation.

[de facto]

I think so but yet some prefer to hurry up and leave it to statistics...i dont.

[nitpicker330]

As I said earlier, we are not TEST PILOTS.

If you company has a SOP in place to allow you to select TOGA at the last minute and not FLEX then fine........

If not then be prepared to justify your decision in a subsequent court of law should something go wrong. Don't expect your Chief Pilot to defend you either.

So, if there is any doubt there is no doubt.

Take the extra 3 minutes, I'll wait if I'm behind you

[5LY]

Rudderrat:

Flexing does not give you a balanced field. You can have an optimized calculation with an assumed temp. Wizo nailed it. Read his post again.

[bubbers44]

Using TOGA obviously makes your flight safer, performance wise, even if you don't recalculate speeds.

Airlines want us to use reduced thrust to save on engines so if we are so concerned about using TOGA and not changing the speeds, aren't we saying using reduced takeoff thrust is dangerous and we should always use max? It seems like a lot of pilots are saying that in this thread.

If you want the lowest V1 then just use the max takeoff flap setting and max power. I'm sure the airlines would love that.

I think we are nitpicking this to death, personally.

[KBPsen]

I think we are nitpicking this to death, personally.

Yep, I am not sure what test pilot territory is entered here.

[sabenaboy]

Originally Posted by nitpicker330

As I said earlier, we are not TEST PILOTS.

Whow, so now I deserve the title "test pilot" because I dare to set TOGA with the original flex speeds? Thanks, I'm honoured . I can tell you this "procedure" (I wouldn't even call it that) has been "tested" regularly at Sabena and my current employer and many other operators without doubt.

Originally Posted by nitpicker330

However that being said unless I had a very good reason to get airborne ASAP I would take a moment and re do the numbers.

Nitpicker330 added that sentence to his post, after I had posted my reply #22. After reading his last contributions, I think it's now time to put that link up anyway.

Here's what Wikipedia says about nitpicking: "As nitpicking inherently requires fastidious, meticulous attention to detail, the term has become appropriated to describe the practice of meticulously searching for minor, even trivial errors in detail (often referred to as "nits" as well), and then criticising them"

I suppose that nitpicking shouldn't be used for these replies because that implies that there were indeed trivial errors to be be found. There aren't!! This thread should have ended after my first reply.

Originally Posted by nitpicker330

If you company has a SOP in place to allow you to select TOGA at the last minute and not FLEX then fine........

Let me turn it around, nitpicker, de facto and others: show me one SOP or give me one good reason why setting TOGA with the original flex speeds would be unsafe! Please refrain from posting if you can't.

If you're in front of me, I would sure hope you'd have the courtesy not to delay my departure while you're doing unnecessary speed recalculations . If the only delay you're creating is your own, then be my guest and nitpick all you want in your cockpit.

[de facto]

Hey sabena man,

Did i ever write in my posts that it was unsafe?no!for the second part ill deal with the delay to have speeds matching the thrust setting used.
Personal choice thats all.

Small country big ego i see..

[FE Hoppy]

If you look at this little picture and consider the original Flex V1 to be at the point the two lines cross, then increasing to TOGA is the same as moving downwards into the "Whatever" zone.

When You flex you reduce the thrust to match the space available. As you reduce the thrust the range of V1 that would allow a safe outcome reduces. If you can reduce all the way until you become runway limited then you are at the point where the lines cross and you only have one V1 available. But that V1 is always within the usable range for higher thrust settings.

Vr and V2 are essentially based on weight (stall speed) and the only reason you might get different values with different types of calculation (rated / flex) is down to the engineering selection of Vr/V2/Vs ratio. For our flex calculation with added thrust the original Vr and V2 are still valid.

[PappyJ]

DESPEGUE

You are confusing De-rate with Flex. Flex IS a full thrust take-off, only full thrust is assumed at a higher temperature. All performance is calculated for the higher temperature, therefore actual performance will be better than predicted.

Derate is a different story entirely. in the cast of Derate, Vmcg is definately a limiting factor as the thrust is calculated - amongst other things - rudder efficiency, with its limit governing the amount asymmetric thrust it can control.


One advantage of FLEX, is that TOGA can be selected at any time throughout the take-off and first few segments of climb. Derate on the other hand, has limits and conditions (i.e.: speeds must be greater than "XXX" whilst in CONF 2 or 3, etc, etc).

With FLEX Thrust Management, TOGA is a lot like Viagra. You can Fuc& without it, but using it makes you feel better with the only side-effect being that your bitc& screams a little louder.