Pilot's seat a MEL item?

[185 585]

As this is my first post at PPruNe - and I am not a pilot but just a humble locomotive engineer - you might say that I signed up at the wrong board, but lurking here for more than half a decade, I think that my question might only be answered here.

Three days ago I signed one of our locomotives as non-serviceable because the driver's seat in cab one went completely out of order. The backrest was broken, the height adjustment was broken, and despite being 6´5, I could barely reach my controls and the dead man switch. It really was that bad.

Dispatch said that there would be the possibility of me standing upright all the way to my destination, but I politely declined.

I've read some discussions about MEL items on this board, only to understand that a MEL seems to be somehow subjected to company policy with a certain regard of the OEM manufacturer's MEL. Still, the pilot's seat was never mentioned in these discussions.

Now I can barely imagine to drive my train without having a seat to smother into - but I cannot imagine a plane being flown without the two guys who have to pull at a yoke and have to push some pedals and have to be in a position to grasp somne levers without a working seat. But I've never seen a MEL that stated that both the captain and the F/O needed a working seat.

So is it that self-evident that your seat works before you continue with your job that doesn't need your seat to be MELed?

[Ndicho Moja]

Quite often if a seat is not working as it should, it can be locked into a certain position, whether it is the FWD/AFT movement, hight adjustment or recline angle. However, those MELs usually end with "At Pilot's discretion". If it cannot be fixed to the satisfaction of the individual who will be sitting in it then they usually will not take it.

There are few things more distracting than an uncomfortable seat.

[Dream Land]

Pilot seats on modern jet airliners have electronic controls for forward and aft movement, and for height adjustment, should the electronics fail, these adjustments can be accomplished manually.

Other adjustments like arm rest, lumbar and recline are controlled manually, so unless there is some catastrophic failure, the pilot seat itself is never an issue.



Cheers, D.L.

[grounded27]

I've read some discussions about MEL items on this board, only to understand that a MEL seems to be somehow subjected to company policy with a certain regard of the OEM manufacturer's MEL. Still, the pilot's seat was never mentioned in these discussions.

It is clearly defined on aircraft.

Bottom line on aircraft, if the pilot's seats can not be adjusted by elec. or manual means the aircraft is grounded. I would contact your transport admin with a safety issue if in your place if your company refused to fix your seat.

[185 585]

Originally Posted by Dream Land

Pilot seats on modern jet airliners have electronic controls for forward and aft movement, and for height adjustment

Our seat controls are solely based on pneumatics.

Originally Posted by Dream Land

should the electronics fail, these adjustments can be accomplished manually

Yes, but you may meet a mechanical interlocking device called Rückfallebene ;-)

Originally Posted by Dream Land

so unless there is some catastrophic failure, the pilot seat itself is never an issue.

Congratulations - the locomotive engineers seat still is

[A Comfy Chair]

There is an MEL for the seat on some aircraft at least.

Ours states that non-essential functions (such as recline and the lumbar support) can be U/S as long as the seat is acceptable to the flight crew member, otherwise it is no-dispatch.

Makes sense really!

[MarkerInbound]

The idea behind a MEL is everything has to work correctly unless it is covered in the MEL. In our MEL (747-400) the electric operation can be inop if the manual works. Also the recline, armrest, headrest, lumbar support and vertical adjustment can be inop "if acceptable to flight crew." No relief is given if the fore and aft movement is totally inop and the plane would be grounded.

[Denti]

On our old fashioned 737 NGs the same is applicable as mentioned by MarkerInbound, except we do not have electric operation in the first place. Harnesses must be working as well as the fore-aft/sideways movement. The rest may be inoperative if "acceptable to the affected crewmember".

Most often used reason to write an aircraft AOG because of flight crew seats is actually the shoulder harness since the locking mechanism sometimes lock up on its own and has to be repaired or replaced by maintenance.

[TURIN]

The idea behind a MEL is everything has to work correctly unless it is covered in the MEL.

Or other ATP (Approved Technical Publication) such as the AMM or SRM.

Gawd I'm being pedantic today, sorry.


An example of a seat inop.

A330 electrical control, the fore-aft drive motor has a tendancy to fail in a way that it runs on when the switch is released. The result is an annoying whine for several seconds each time you move the seat. Seat operation is not affected in any way. Most pilots will accept it and report into main base where it will be attended to as required. On a line station there is only one option-MEL. Result is deactivation of electrical control (CB tripped) and the pilot will have to move the seat manually. Only slightly more annoying than a whining seat.

One could argue that the motor running on represents a possible fire hazard I suppose.

Horses for courses as they say.

[Capn Bloggs]

A typical Pilot's Seat MEL (apologies for the formatting; C is the duration allowed for the defect, in this case being 10 days; the first number is the number fitted, the second is the number required):

25 EQUIPMENT/FURNISHINGS ¦ ¦ ¦ ¦


¦ 15-02 Flight Crew ¦ ¦ ¦ ¦
¦ Seats ¦ ¦ ¦ ¦

¦ 1) Lumbar Supports C ¦ 2 ¦ 0 ¦ May be inoperative in the retracted ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ position provided the seat is ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ acceptable to the affected ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ crewmember. ¦

¦ 2) Thigh Supports C ¦ 4 ¦ 0 ¦ May be inoperative in the retracted ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ position provided the seat is ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ acceptable to the affected crew ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ member. ¦

¦ 3) Armrests B ¦ 4 ¦ 2 ¦ One armrest on each seat may be ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ inoperative or missing provided: ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ a) Egress is not impaired, and ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ b) Seat is acceptable to the ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ affected crewmember. ¦

¦ 4) Pneumatic Height C ¦ 2 ¦ 0 ¦ May be inoperative provided the ¦
¦ Adjustment ¦ ¦ ¦ seat height can be manually ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ adjusted to the proper position. ¦

¦ 22-01 "Fasten Seat C ¦ - ¦ - ¦ One or more signs or placards may ¦
¦ Belt While ¦ ¦ ¦ be illegible or missing provided a ¦
¦ Seated" Signs or ¦ ¦ ¦ legible sign or placard is readable ¦
¦ Placards ¦ ¦ ¦ from each occupied passenger seat. ¦
¦ (Unlighted) ¦ ¦ ¦ ¦

[dhardesthard]

Overlooked items in MEL.

Sometimes manufacturers overlook items and that is when common sense takes over as in the case of this locomotive's driver's seat. I came across two such items on the A320 during my 8 years spent on the type. The saying that "if it is not in the MEL then it is a NO GO item" is not strictly accurate.

[Daysleeper]

The saying that "if it is not in the MEL then it is a NO GO item" is not strictly accurate.

though it is if you want to stay legal and not invalidate the CofA and insurance.

[TURIN]

I feel a thread drift coming on....

The saying that "if it is not in the MEL then it is a NO GO item" is not strictly accurate.

though it is if you want to stay legal and not invalidate the CofA and insurance.

Lots of things not in the MEL/CDL but are still considered ok if inop/missing.

EG, brake wear pin.

Deferred under an AMM reference not the MEL/CDL (At least, it is on many of the types I know)

[Daysleeper]

Deferred under an AMM reference not the MEL/CDL

That really wasn't what he was implying now was it...

But back to the thread...

[vapilot2004]

Sometimes manufacturers overlook items and that is when common sense takes over as in the case of this locomotive's driver's seat. I came across two such items on the A320 during my 8 years spent on the type. The saying that "if it is not in the MEL then it is a NO GO item" is not strictly accurate.

Someone once told me the dinner tables are on the MEL. True?

[safelife]

Only if they can't be stowed.

[grounded27]

Sometimes manufacturers overlook items and that is when common sense takes over as in the case of this locomotive's driver's seat. I came across two such items on the A320 during my 8 years spent on the type. The saying that "if it is not in the MEL then it is a NO GO item" is not strictly accurate.

The NEF program (non essential for flight) or basically non airworthy items. Working for a pax airline in the past I had to be careful reviewing our "cabin discrepancy log" that was filled out by FA's. Sometimes emergency equipment would end up in the log. This list could grow long and I actually had a flight crew transcribe the whole damb thing into the logbook once. It was in our program to maintain a running cabin log, it would be addressed at base with ought having to fix or NEF said items in the meantime. Once in the logbook, hell I still have a cramp in my right hand from having to defer all the items.

[vapilot2004]

Only if they can't be stowed.

This makes sense although a non-extendable condition would seem equally squawk-worthy.