Your airlines' policy about the use of automation during flight?
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In 11 years and many many flying hours, I have never been in a situation where the autopilot is unable to maintain an acceptable flight path. If you have then I put it to you that you were somewhere you should not have been thus opening further questions.
On the equally lovely 747-400 I have been on for the last two years, I have already had to disconnect the A/P at least once as it was clearly doing something patently silly. Come to think of it, even on the ultra-modern A321 I flew for seven years, a couple times it went "wonky" leaving no alternative but manual flight (one classic example was the dual FMGC timeout as I recall).
The bottom line is, automatics are wonderful and quite reliable (especially on newer airplanes), but sooner or later they will fail/misbehave. As long as the guys/girls on the "sharp end" are the type that use automation as a mere tool, are well aware of the attitude and thrust required for each phase of flight and are comfortable flying manually, it will be a non-event.
Automatics are your slave, NOT the other way around. By all means use them, but depend on them at your own peril.
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The following, I think, are facts:
1- the better you hand fly, the better you understand automation
2- the better you understand automation, the better you can master automation
3- the better you are at hand flying, the safer pilot you are
4- the better you are at automated flying, the safer pilot you are
wait, a better order would be 4,3,1 and 2, maybe
1- the better you hand fly, the better you understand automation
2- the better you understand automation, the better you can master automation
3- the better you are at hand flying, the safer pilot you are
4- the better you are at automated flying, the safer pilot you are
wait, a better order would be 4,3,1 and 2, maybe
Microburst2002: I couldn't agree more.
Shifting the debate slightly to one side, perhaps some of you more experienced pilots might be kind enough to suggest a practical approach for inexperienced pilots to improve their handling without letting their inexperience endanger the operation?
Putting the query in that way risks an outpouring of scorn from people who see my inexperience as a weapon with which to oust me from my 'shiny jet', but I firmly believe the self-improvement option is the only way ahead in a risk-averse industry. We all know there is a time and a place for 'practising'; so what do you think a 1000hr baby should be doing?
MH152
Shifting the debate slightly to one side, perhaps some of you more experienced pilots might be kind enough to suggest a practical approach for inexperienced pilots to improve their handling without letting their inexperience endanger the operation?
Putting the query in that way risks an outpouring of scorn from people who see my inexperience as a weapon with which to oust me from my 'shiny jet', but I firmly believe the self-improvement option is the only way ahead in a risk-averse industry. We all know there is a time and a place for 'practising'; so what do you think a 1000hr baby should be doing?
MH152
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Microburst2002 - 2,3, and 4 OK, 1, NO.
There are still people out there who will, as a first reaction to any problem, dump the autopilot and start handflying without proper analysis of the problem, the annoucement, "Disconnecting" usually comes a second or so after the buttons are pressed!
More than once I have seen the automatics dumped, (on B747-400), when they were actually doing what they were programmed to do, either the FMC had been incorrectly programmed or the MCP had been mishandled - No, automatics are not always right, but, on aircraft such as the B757, 767 and particularly the B747-400, more often than not they are.
There are still people out there who will, as a first reaction to any problem, dump the autopilot and start handflying without proper analysis of the problem, the annoucement, "Disconnecting" usually comes a second or so after the buttons are pressed!
More than once I have seen the automatics dumped, (on B747-400), when they were actually doing what they were programmed to do, either the FMC had been incorrectly programmed or the MCP had been mishandled - No, automatics are not always right, but, on aircraft such as the B757, 767 and particularly the B747-400, more often than not they are.
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Not being a pilot myself, I can't say - but most of the correspondence I've received over the years, as well as a considerable amount I've read on here, tends to indicate that modern automation is about as good as it can get, and while it is no substitute for analytical human minds on the flight deck, any assumption that an unexpected change in vertical or horizontal track must be due to a fault in the automatics (as opposed to inadvertent mis-programming) is likely to be mistaken. If you're not happy, then disconnect the FMS routing, but surely using a basic altitude hold while diagnosing the problem should be the next step. If that doesn't have the desired effect, then go hand-flying, but bear in mind that it will consume a lot of effort - possibly more than you anticipate.
To be clear, I'm not saying that handflying should be a method of last resort. If it's a good day, your airspace is relatively clear and you feel comfortable, nothing should stop you. However, if and when things head south one should give careful consideration to the increase in workload that handflying will put on the PNF, as well as yourself.
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To be clear, I'm not saying that handflying should be a method of last resort. If it's a good day, your airspace is relatively clear and you feel comfortable, nothing should stop you
I honestly don't mean to denigrate your sentiments but I believe you do need to have been a jet transport pilot with both significant hand flying and automatic pilot monitoring experience to understand the subject under discussion. Hand flying these aircraft should be a normal accepted skill whatever the weather conditions. The automatics are there as an aid to navigation in general - they should not be treated as a crutch because of a pilot's lack of competency in pure flying ability. Judging from accident investigation reports pertaining to jet transports it seems the latter is now the norm.
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The automatics are there as an aid to navigation in general
As DozyWannabe points out, Kegworth was a classic example of a time when full and proper use of the automatics may have brought about a better outcome.
Hand flying these aircraft should be a normal accepted skill whatever the weather conditions.
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1- the better you hand fly the better you understand automation
...the better you may understand automation.
which means that if you don't study the books frequently and learn from experience and keep studiying from time to time, you will never fully understand your automation.
If you lack hand flying skills (for instance because you hardly have flown a few hours in a cessna, after which you directly came to the jet airliner and only hand flew it a little bit in the sim) automation becomes a "black box". You insert inputs, and outputs are the result, but you don't understand how things work inside the black box. That is, in my opinion, inacceptable from a professional pilot.
I sometimes get surprised when fellows with over 2000 hours on a jet demonstrate a very poor understanding of the principles involved in flight and how they have a lot of misconceptions about automation modes.
If you come from another jet airliner that you did fly manually frequently, then you will understand easily any automation, as long as the aircraft still has wings and engines.
The following, I think, are requisites por a transport pilot:
1- master your automation
2- don't be afraid of hand flying (no AP/FD, no A/THR)
I think that regular hand flying practise is good for both
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Hand flying these aircraft should be a normal accepted skill whatever the weather conditions. The automatics are there as an aid to navigation in general - they should not be treated as a crutch because of a pilot's lack of competency in pure flying ability. Judging from accident investigation reports pertaining to jet transports it seems the latter is now the norm.
Parabellum has done a good job of putting what I wrote more succinctly.
Precisely. The role of F/E has not "disappeared" as such - the troubleshooting role that the F/E once filled has been divided between the two flight crew at the controls (with the aircraft systems management role being handled by the automatics). The troubleshooting role becomes a lot easier to play when you're not trying to manually handle the jet at the same time. Again, I think that parcticing handflying in a troubleshooting situation should definitely be part of recurrent training, but in these modern times that also belongs in the simulator. Any other time, as long as you're confident of your handling skills, go knock yourself out! Just please understand that along with the rest of the human cargo, I want you to be *really* sure you can handle it...
Last edited by DozyWannabe; 19th Jun 2011 at 15:37.
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Originally Posted by DozyWannabe
The troubleshooting role becomes a lot easier to play when you're not trying to manually handle the jet at the same time. Again, I think that parcticing handflying in a troubleshooting situation should definitely be part of recurrent training, but in these modern times that also belongs in the simulator.
Originally Posted by Company's OM
Policy for Use of Automation during Flight
Generally, automatic mode should be selected for cruise flight. In abnormal situations,
automatic capabilities should be used as much as possible, in order to minimise flight deck
workload. If in climb or approach, workload, weather conditions and crew fatigue permit, pilots
may fly manually in order to maintain their basic flying skills.
No offence intended, so please don't take it as such. I don't know your background (nothing in your profile) but unless you have spent considerable time on an airliner flight deck, an even if you made a good post, you're not in a good position to fully understand the subject.
Respectfully,
Sabenaboy
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@sabenaboy
My views on the subject are in agreement with yours, and I probably expressed them best here:
For the record, I'm just a software engineer - but one with a love of aviation since childhood which manifested as a stint as an Air Cadet and an intent to join the RAF until I turned 16 and got long hair, rock music and pacifism. Part of me would love to fly airliners for a living, but the fact is that I simply couldn't afford it in this day and age. As far as this forum goes I try very hard to not stick my oar in unless the info I have is confirmed and/or documented, and I'm always willing to accept if I've overstepped my mark.
As far as the technical aspects of hand-flying airliners go, naturally I'm speaking from a position of relative ignorance (but like to think I'm reasonably well-versed in aeronautics, aviation history and accident investigation for a layman), and as such will defer, but as far as the business aspect of the things you are discussing goes - believe me it's not just happening to airlines. I got some positive feedback from a post I made the last time this subject was discussed, which is here:
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/43780...ml#post6183737
The knowledge I have regarding high-level design and specification of modern automatics (particularly as they relate to the A320 and her descendants) came from my Software Engineering/Reliability professor, Peter Mellor - who you'll find deeply involved in many of the discussions on the development of airliner FBW going back to the late 1980s. The A320 story became the introduction to our first-year Software Engineering module - both as an example of how complex, multiply-redundant safety-critical computer systems are designed and specified, and as a cautionary tale - how important it is to make sure that things are done right and how dire the consequences can be if they are not. It reappeared in the final year Software Reliability module, which went more into the detail of how redundancy was designed into the systems and implemented.
This discussion doesn't really relate to that a great degree, since for the most part we are talking about modern autopilots (FMS/FMC etc.). I'm willing to stay in the background here, but as an interested observer I hope you don't mind me putting a view forward.
My views on the subject are in agreement with yours, and I probably expressed them best here:
I don't know how many times one can repeat that automation was developed as a back-stop to allow flight crew to manage the flight more effectively - *not* as a substitute for airmanship period!
Even Bernard Ziegler in full flow never said "See? the aircraft is flying herself. Now you don't even have to monitor the instruments or maintain the situational awareness!".
Even Bernard Ziegler in full flow never said "See? the aircraft is flying herself. Now you don't even have to monitor the instruments or maintain the situational awareness!".
As far as the technical aspects of hand-flying airliners go, naturally I'm speaking from a position of relative ignorance (but like to think I'm reasonably well-versed in aeronautics, aviation history and accident investigation for a layman), and as such will defer, but as far as the business aspect of the things you are discussing goes - believe me it's not just happening to airlines. I got some positive feedback from a post I made the last time this subject was discussed, which is here:
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/43780...ml#post6183737
The knowledge I have regarding high-level design and specification of modern automatics (particularly as they relate to the A320 and her descendants) came from my Software Engineering/Reliability professor, Peter Mellor - who you'll find deeply involved in many of the discussions on the development of airliner FBW going back to the late 1980s. The A320 story became the introduction to our first-year Software Engineering module - both as an example of how complex, multiply-redundant safety-critical computer systems are designed and specified, and as a cautionary tale - how important it is to make sure that things are done right and how dire the consequences can be if they are not. It reappeared in the final year Software Reliability module, which went more into the detail of how redundancy was designed into the systems and implemented.
This discussion doesn't really relate to that a great degree, since for the most part we are talking about modern autopilots (FMS/FMC etc.). I'm willing to stay in the background here, but as an interested observer I hope you don't mind me putting a view forward.
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@DozyWannabe
Absolutely not. Thanks for your interesting contribution.
as an interested observer I hope you don't mind me putting a view forward.
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By all means Dozy.
But you must give the majority of us credit for the fact that we do not hand fly into busy TMA's, we do not hand fly through bad weather/around bad weather, and most probably do not hand fly in IMC. We do not do it because we can't, but for the fact that monitoring becomes a much more important task during these times. Good pilots know how to manage workload as well as many other things, and as such hand fly at appropriate times.
I would add though that pilots do not have a good grasp of punctuation or spelling (for pilots add I)!
I fly because I love it (bar the night flights!), I loved it since my first AEF flight out of BOH on the Chipmunk, why on earth do I want to manage the whole flight, bar the last 400', via the MCP and FMS.
Regards
GBD
But you must give the majority of us credit for the fact that we do not hand fly into busy TMA's, we do not hand fly through bad weather/around bad weather, and most probably do not hand fly in IMC. We do not do it because we can't, but for the fact that monitoring becomes a much more important task during these times. Good pilots know how to manage workload as well as many other things, and as such hand fly at appropriate times.
I would add though that pilots do not have a good grasp of punctuation or spelling (for pilots add I)!
I fly because I love it (bar the night flights!), I loved it since my first AEF flight out of BOH on the Chipmunk, why on earth do I want to manage the whole flight, bar the last 400', via the MCP and FMS.
Regards
GBD
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We do not do it because we can't, but for the fact that monitoring becomes a much more important task during these times. Good pilots know how to manage workload as well as many other things, and as such hand fly at appropriate times.
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and most probably do not hand fly in IMC.
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and most probably do not hand fly in IMC
A few harmless (layered, non convective, no embedded CB's forecast or reported) cloud layers and good visibility below a cloud base of let's say 500' AGL would not necessarily stop me from hand flying raw data down the ILS.
With lower cloud base and or low visibility I'll let "James" take care of tracking the ILS.
Even though I've hand flown the A320 simulator without F/D along the ILS, to a full stop with 25' ceiling and 100m vis, doesn't mean I'd ever want to do that in the real a/c!
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From what I've heard hand flying raw data is highly unusual at BA. Disconnecting A/P (but keeping F/D + A/T on) somewhere on final would be the norm? Does that sound more correct?
I can only speak for longhaul but why anyone would want to practise raw data flying after a 8-12 hour overnight sector defeats me.
Such flying can be practised on Caribbean visual approaches if one is desperate. And on my fleet the A/T is always on.
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Even though I've hand flown the A320 simulator without F/D
along the ILS, to a full stop with 25' ceiling and 100m vis,
doesn't mean I'd ever want to do that in the real a/c!
along the ILS, to a full stop with 25' ceiling and 100m vis,
doesn't mean I'd ever want to do that in the real a/c!
without using TCAS) but of course he had a REAL aeroplane.
<--skip to 01.00
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Have a look at this Safety Alert for Operators (SAFO) issued by the FAA on 4 jan 2013.
Glad to see that the FAA is now encouraging what my company has been doing all along.
Glad to see that the FAA is now encouraging what my company has been doing all along.
