AF 447 Search to resume (part2)
Originally Posted by deSitter
This entire worldview of the computer flying an airplane is a catastrophe. I will never fly on any Airbus product for the remainder of my life. I want my life in the hands of pilots, not mediocre IT personnel.
I'm no fan of excessive reliance on automation, but I bet a lot of crusty old guys weren't too keen on non-recip engines (to be fair, the early failure rates were a bit obscene) and VORs, either.
A Chicken Little-like Luddite's view isn't doing anyone any favors.
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If ACARS ended at altitude, I think it may be time to reinvigorate the proposition the a/c lost some parts, on the way down, even just post the last vertical speed message.
If this flight punched into the demon, fbw, or cables and pistons, no one survives. FBW, MeatPilot, Boing, or Bus, All are Moot.
If this flight punched into the demon, fbw, or cables and pistons, no one survives. FBW, MeatPilot, Boing, or Bus, All are Moot.
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Hi Bearfoil,
Humm Bear... don't make a fool of yourself as you perfectly know that Airbus [please, note the right spelling] didn't say a word about it and, a fortiori, didn't claim anything. Those reporter "sources" are always the famous "close to the investigation" noise.
Other engine picts:
Originally Posted by Bearfuel
So are AirBus claiming the a/c was upset by weather only??
Other engine picts:
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takata
It was a sincere question, if AB is saying nothing, then this so-called source is premature?? Asking a question is not allowed?? hmmmm..........
TurbineD
In takata's third picture, are the two "plates" at 11o'clock and 1o'clock the pylon mounts?? If so, then the engine lifted back into the pylon, and the plates punched through the Stator??
It was a sincere question, if AB is saying nothing, then this so-called source is premature?? Asking a question is not allowed?? hmmmm..........
TurbineD
In takata's third picture, are the two "plates" at 11o'clock and 1o'clock the pylon mounts?? If so, then the engine lifted back into the pylon, and the plates punched through the Stator??
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The work of the BEA consists now to determine what happened in the cockpit and if the errors made are the responsibility of the crew or the one of Air France, especially because of the security procedures imposed by the company.
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Bear,
I think you misunderstood PJ2's post regarding the engines. What he said was the engine photographed on the sea bed was fan rotorless. This was the 2nd engine brought onto the recovery ship. Read his post again. also, don't you think some of the nacelle inlet pieces might have entered the fan causing the damage to the LE of the fan blades? Just a thought.
I think you misunderstood PJ2's post regarding the engines. What he said was the engine photographed on the sea bed was fan rotorless. This was the 2nd engine brought onto the recovery ship. Read his post again. also, don't you think some of the nacelle inlet pieces might have entered the fan causing the damage to the LE of the fan blades? Just a thought.
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hedge36, it's becoming clear what happened here - problems developed for which there were no stick-and-rudder guys aboard, and indeed there is no stick-and-ruddering to be done with this flying cybernetic organism. I guarantee that what happened is, the pilots flew the airplane into the ocean while dicking around with the flight manager. They had little time to react, and they pissed it away trying to reconnect the AP or some such IT task better left to H1Bs. I'll eat my ailerons if that's not what happened. The airplane, the philosophy of "computers are cheaper than pilots", is a disaster.
What you need is an airplane with high wing loading that will not turn into a falling leaf if the computer that flies it, decides to fart to the north instead of to the south.
What you need is an airplane with high wing loading that will not turn into a falling leaf if the computer that flies it, decides to fart to the north instead of to the south.
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Have followed this accident from the beginning
For some reason yet unknown this crew appeared to fly into a radar shadow and then into a monster updraft scenario. A pilot friend of mine tells me it is almost indescribable flying into such a nightmarish event. I was schocked at the crash location being just about 5 miles from the LOC. I tend to think that violent storm just took that plane and flung it into the ocean. I have rehearsed this with a legacy pilot and the terror of those last minutes much have been heart rending. My juvenile guess is that the constraints and pressures placed on pilots today to fly on the edge was a factor in this flight crew making a fatal decision. My sympathies lie with the crew and the incredible job they do day in and day out.
Thanks to all on this thread that have answered so many of my questions.
Thanks to all on this thread that have answered so many of my questions.
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Was the procedure to be that a representative of the French judicial police, and representatives from the UK, Brazil, Germany and maybe the U.S. would listen to the CVR along with the BEA?
If so, it would be as some of the comments in Le Figaro exclaim, 'Extraordinaire!' to have the BEA come out with findings so quickly. And to presumably do so with the concurrence of the French magistrates conducting the criminal investigation.
Under French judicial procedures, if a party under investigation is determined not to be at fault or involved, must the court quickly remove that party as a subject of the investigation? Perhaps that is a reason for the speedy release of the findings.
If so, it would be as some of the comments in Le Figaro exclaim, 'Extraordinaire!' to have the BEA come out with findings so quickly. And to presumably do so with the concurrence of the French magistrates conducting the criminal investigation.
Under French judicial procedures, if a party under investigation is determined not to be at fault or involved, must the court quickly remove that party as a subject of the investigation? Perhaps that is a reason for the speedy release of the findings.
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TurbineD
I think I read PJ2's post correctly. Nacelle ingestion is remote for that damage. I think the ingestion would be at forward speed only, no time to contact the Wheel. The engine Fan Blades are moving at roughly 1200 mph relative to the water, the Fan Blades were likely "still" by the time the first fragment ambled back into the Fan. The Fan had stopped, the Blades were still, and any fragments in front would be hitting the Blades at 1/15 the speed of the initial contact. In other words, I think the blades incurred leading edge damage before they hit the debris. Instant stop v. 60 mph aft, covering 18 inches?? I think it possible that the Nacelle debris was not ingested at all, but expelled forward, in the ram created by the incredible displacement of water by the Fan "Disc". Disc in the sense of an energetic and dynamic "wall". What is also possible is that the disintegrating Fan Blades created a metallic and composite 'Slurry' creating an hydraulic cutting medium in the adjacent chaotic spool down.
I think I read PJ2's post correctly. Nacelle ingestion is remote for that damage. I think the ingestion would be at forward speed only, no time to contact the Wheel. The engine Fan Blades are moving at roughly 1200 mph relative to the water, the Fan Blades were likely "still" by the time the first fragment ambled back into the Fan. The Fan had stopped, the Blades were still, and any fragments in front would be hitting the Blades at 1/15 the speed of the initial contact. In other words, I think the blades incurred leading edge damage before they hit the debris. Instant stop v. 60 mph aft, covering 18 inches?? I think it possible that the Nacelle debris was not ingested at all, but expelled forward, in the ram created by the incredible displacement of water by the Fan "Disc". Disc in the sense of an energetic and dynamic "wall". What is also possible is that the disintegrating Fan Blades created a metallic and composite 'Slurry' creating an hydraulic cutting medium in the adjacent chaotic spool down.
Last edited by bearfoil; 17th May 2011 at 01:59.
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Originally Posted by Bearfoil
It was a sincere question, if AB is saying nothing, then this so-called source is premature?? Asking a question is not allowed?? hmmmm..........
Anyway, I posted those engine picture for you to look at as I'm not that a bad boy. [Note also: AB mean nothing; AI (Airbus Industry) meant something; now it is Airbus SAS, an EADS company]
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Le travail du BEA va maintenant consister à déterminer ce qui s’est passé dans le cockpit, et si les erreurs commises sont de la responsabilité de l’équipage ou de celle d’Air France, notamment du fait des procédures de sécurité imposée par la compagnie.
Is this a hint there was only one pilot in the cockpit?
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Originally Posted by deSitter
What you need is an airplane with high wing loading that will not turn into a falling leaf if the computer that flies it, decides to fart to the north instead of to the south.
Beside, do you know a single large transport aircraft which is built without a flight computer today? More likely, the biggest issue is that you don't have a clue about what you are talking about.
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jcjeant
Your anti-french bias leads you, again, astray.
And it's bloody annoying.
Get a life.
Secondfly, your silly comments about the Yemenia missing report is also way out of base as the BEA was subject to the necessities of the Comorrean authorities.
Same thing about the Ethiopian jet that crashed out of Beyrut. The publication - or not - is the Libanese government responsibility. Not the BEA
And this leak has nothing to do with the BEA, nor the NTSB representative....or any of a few others allowed in the investigation.
RR_NDB,
That piece of video is a self-serving operation by a sensationalist journalist of the Fig trying to sell his book.
Among the pearls of this interview is "a serious breach of safety against all rules as an AF 380 took off from JFK to CDG with only two pilots at the controls !!!"
I rest my case.
This said, we have two possibilities here :
1/- The article has managed some serious sources, or
3/- There is nothing of material substance behind that announcement.
What is astonishingt is how quick someone, apparently au fait of the investigation has come to a conclusion that completely exonerates Airbus (which I find really difficult to understand as the ACARS were bringing a dark picture of a situation that caused a major stressful situation in that flight deck ) and at the same time putting the blame on Air France and the pilots for causing the accident.
The first possibility is frightful : we are talking about a major safety breach here and way beyond my theory of a less-than-optimum operating flight deck crew.
The only thought that comes to my mind is, that close to the crew change-over, that there was only one pilot up front when the chips went down.
In this speculation, the flight deck door is locked, without any possibility for the other pilots to regain their seat as the one left on his own was too busy .
Why am I thinking about that possibility ?
It was a theory, one among others, said a long time ago when it was learned that one of the pilots was travelling with hids wife in J.
I understand why so many countries are envious of France to have an investigation office so performant.
And it's bloody annoying.
Get a life.
Secondfly, your silly comments about the Yemenia missing report is also way out of base as the BEA was subject to the necessities of the Comorrean authorities.
Same thing about the Ethiopian jet that crashed out of Beyrut. The publication - or not - is the Libanese government responsibility. Not the BEA
And this leak has nothing to do with the BEA, nor the NTSB representative....or any of a few others allowed in the investigation.
RR_NDB,
That piece of video is a self-serving operation by a sensationalist journalist of the Fig trying to sell his book.
Among the pearls of this interview is "a serious breach of safety against all rules as an AF 380 took off from JFK to CDG with only two pilots at the controls !!!"
I rest my case.
This said, we have two possibilities here :
1/- The article has managed some serious sources, or
3/- There is nothing of material substance behind that announcement.
What is astonishingt is how quick someone, apparently au fait of the investigation has come to a conclusion that completely exonerates Airbus (which I find really difficult to understand as the ACARS were bringing a dark picture of a situation that caused a major stressful situation in that flight deck ) and at the same time putting the blame on Air France and the pilots for causing the accident.
The first possibility is frightful : we are talking about a major safety breach here and way beyond my theory of a less-than-optimum operating flight deck crew.
The only thought that comes to my mind is, that close to the crew change-over, that there was only one pilot up front when the chips went down.
In this speculation, the flight deck door is locked, without any possibility for the other pilots to regain their seat as the one left on his own was too busy .
Why am I thinking about that possibility ?
It was a theory, one among others, said a long time ago when it was learned that one of the pilots was travelling with hids wife in J.
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Bear,
My answer is no from what I can see. There are some other features of the fan by-pass area that may have folded back and that is what you are seeing and calling plates. I can't tell for sure but I think I see one of the yoke to platform links (rods).
Also, we actually don't know what the N1 speed was in the end.
In takata's third picture, are the two "plates" at 11o'clock and 1o'clock the pylon mounts?? If so, then the engine lifted back into the pylon, and the plates punched through the Stator??
Also, we actually don't know what the N1 speed was in the end.
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The only thought that comes to my mind is, that close to the crew change-over, that there was only one pilot up front when the chips went down.
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without computer
Beside, do you know a single large transport aircraft which is built without a flight computer today? More likely, the biggest issue is that you don't have a clue about what you are talking about.
So? What difference does that make for actually being in charge of an airplane? Stick and rudder guys fly the 777 and are amazed. The 777 behaves like a big airplane, it doesn't turn real nifty but just try to knock it out of the air.
So? What difference does that make for actually being in charge of an airplane? Stick and rudder guys fly the 777 and are amazed. The 777 behaves like a big airplane, it doesn't turn real nifty but just try to knock it out of the air.