Difference between MSA and SSA
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A little late on this topic but....
The Recorders will not be difficult to find at this point. Most are found and only a few haven't been. A couple of the missing ones are: one of the A/C that flew into the world trade center and a Chilean airliner that ran out of fuel (positioning flight) off the coast of Newfoundland. In both cases the causes of the accidents were well known....no need for recorders.
I suspect the large sonar target out to the side of the debris field in the sonar data is the empennage, which structure is often largely intact in over-water-accidents. Also the French now have data from the site survey that strongly indicates the A/C impacted the sea surface with very little horizontal velocity.
Just my $00.02
I suspect the large sonar target out to the side of the debris field in the sonar data is the empennage, which structure is often largely intact in over-water-accidents. Also the French now have data from the site survey that strongly indicates the A/C impacted the sea surface with very little horizontal velocity.
Just my $00.02
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Reasons to be cheerful-Part 1 -MSA
jriv
Having flown a bit in the USA I know of what you speak. I never met one local pilot who ever mentioned terrain clearance in any brief, just obeyed ATC all the way.
A simple question if you don't mind:
IF, as a result of srcew up (either by crew or even ATC with radar) you do receive a genuine GPWS "Pull UP", at what point in the subsequent recovery will you level off?
Having flown a bit in the USA I know of what you speak. I never met one local pilot who ever mentioned terrain clearance in any brief, just obeyed ATC all the way.
A simple question if you don't mind:
IF, as a result of srcew up (either by crew or even ATC with radar) you do receive a genuine GPWS "Pull UP", at what point in the subsequent recovery will you level off?
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Climb until the warning stops and clear of terrain. I know what you're getting at, but I'm certainly not going to level off at the MSA I think is valid for the quadrant I think I'm in when my heart is pounding and trying to remember the MSA from the briefing 20 minutes ago. I'll simply look at the chart right in front of me as I'm climbing.
Look, I'm not suggesting that I fly around with no idea where the terrain is. My point is that as it is briefed, it is simply thrown out there. Then when we are cleared lower and lower as we're vectored onto final, every single pilot I have ever flown with, Captain or FO, always accepts and descends below MSA. A conscientious pilot would ask what the MVA is, but I've simply NEVER heard that request. Not a single time. I have asked for it once, as I was given a vector to intercept final 100' BELOW the charted altitude for the segment I was about to intercept. But that's it.
I'd love to hear from somebody who actually refused a lower altitude because it was below MSA and that action saved them.
Look, I'm not suggesting that I fly around with no idea where the terrain is. My point is that as it is briefed, it is simply thrown out there. Then when we are cleared lower and lower as we're vectored onto final, every single pilot I have ever flown with, Captain or FO, always accepts and descends below MSA. A conscientious pilot would ask what the MVA is, but I've simply NEVER heard that request. Not a single time. I have asked for it once, as I was given a vector to intercept final 100' BELOW the charted altitude for the segment I was about to intercept. But that's it.
I'd love to hear from somebody who actually refused a lower altitude because it was below MSA and that action saved them.
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Good stuff there from BOAC and Avenger and a good prod from Starbear. We always brief MSA et al. You must always be aware of your terrain clearance.
You should also not rely on the fact that you are under radar vectors. This discussion came up in the sim just last week and the trainer had an experience where vectoring would have resulted in the a unfortunate outcome. He was aware of the terrain and was able to do something about it.
jriv, yes you do have the GPWS to aid you should that event occur and yes you can glance down at your chart but I would rather know this info before an occurrence. I would not like to be glancing and wondering in the heat of the moment. You don't have to remember it from 20 minutes ago. You can update your self every few moments. We also update each other throughout the whole approach with altitude and vector changes unless blindingly not necessary.
Safe flying everyone
You should also not rely on the fact that you are under radar vectors. This discussion came up in the sim just last week and the trainer had an experience where vectoring would have resulted in the a unfortunate outcome. He was aware of the terrain and was able to do something about it.
jriv, yes you do have the GPWS to aid you should that event occur and yes you can glance down at your chart but I would rather know this info before an occurrence. I would not like to be glancing and wondering in the heat of the moment. You don't have to remember it from 20 minutes ago. You can update your self every few moments. We also update each other throughout the whole approach with altitude and vector changes unless blindingly not necessary.
Safe flying everyone
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Climb until the warning stops
MSA is the only one at which you would consider easing off the pull up IMC/night.
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jriv :
do you brief the approach minimum ?
i guess not, as it is on the chart in front of you !
i spend a lot of time in India , where they have no radar on most regional airports and descent clearance is as previously mentioned based on radial and DME distance.
for T/O, very often you get a clearance to your desired flight level , visibility is poor most of the time so if you have , let's say an engine failure at 500' , which altitude would you climb to ? i stop at MSA rather than let's say FL300, if you ever get there with one engine .
as part of the line up check, we have a review of the T/O briefing, ie the MSA, or what ever has changed since the clearance and briefing was given.
do you brief the approach minimum ?
i guess not, as it is on the chart in front of you !
i spend a lot of time in India , where they have no radar on most regional airports and descent clearance is as previously mentioned based on radial and DME distance.
for T/O, very often you get a clearance to your desired flight level , visibility is poor most of the time so if you have , let's say an engine failure at 500' , which altitude would you climb to ? i stop at MSA rather than let's say FL300, if you ever get there with one engine .
as part of the line up check, we have a review of the T/O briefing, ie the MSA, or what ever has changed since the clearance and briefing was given.
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Fellow Aviators,
I didn't bring up GPWS. BOAC did. I certainly don't use that as my "safety net." I also don't blindly trust ATC to give me a safe altitude to descend to.
MSA covers an area almost 2000 square miles, or 500 square miles per quadrant. So I'm not neccesarily going to climb to MSA if I get a GPWS warning. MSA is, after all, 1000' above the highest terrain in that 500 square mile quadrant. ATC could very well have traffic at or below MSA because they have an MVA that is lower right where you are. That's why I said "Climb until the warning stops AND YOU ARE CLEAR OF TERRAIN." That's the part that BOAC deliberately left out to try to make me look foolish. If it's night/IMC and the frequency is saturated, of course I would climb to MSA. But let's be realistic, we aren't going to remember that from 20 minutes prior and we aren't going to be rebriefing every few minutes. I have simply NEVER seen that happen.
Do I brief the approach? Of course! I don't brief the MSA because in my experience it is NEVER used. Now if I fly into an unfamiliar airport with high terrain at night/IMC, I will, but other than that I think it simply clutters the briefing and is thrown out there and instantly forgotten because it is NEVER used.
I didn't bring up GPWS. BOAC did. I certainly don't use that as my "safety net." I also don't blindly trust ATC to give me a safe altitude to descend to.
MSA covers an area almost 2000 square miles, or 500 square miles per quadrant. So I'm not neccesarily going to climb to MSA if I get a GPWS warning. MSA is, after all, 1000' above the highest terrain in that 500 square mile quadrant. ATC could very well have traffic at or below MSA because they have an MVA that is lower right where you are. That's why I said "Climb until the warning stops AND YOU ARE CLEAR OF TERRAIN." That's the part that BOAC deliberately left out to try to make me look foolish. If it's night/IMC and the frequency is saturated, of course I would climb to MSA. But let's be realistic, we aren't going to remember that from 20 minutes prior and we aren't going to be rebriefing every few minutes. I have simply NEVER seen that happen.
Do I brief the approach? Of course! I don't brief the MSA because in my experience it is NEVER used. Now if I fly into an unfamiliar airport with high terrain at night/IMC, I will, but other than that I think it simply clutters the briefing and is thrown out there and instantly forgotten because it is NEVER used.
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note on all of the failures and warnings...wouldnt you just climb to the hold or follow the instructions for communications loss?
I am aware that with the procedures in AUS, the MVA chart looks like a mottled pattern.
With the RNP approaches, multiple transitions to a common final, there are many entry points. These waypoints will each have a MVA, which will be to join the procedure, irrespective of the MSA.
I am aware that with the procedures in AUS, the MVA chart looks like a mottled pattern.
With the RNP approaches, multiple transitions to a common final, there are many entry points. These waypoints will each have a MVA, which will be to join the procedure, irrespective of the MSA.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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AND YOU ARE CLEAR OF TERRAIN." That's the part that BOAC deliberately left out to try to make me look foolish.
Two further points to ponder:
1) 'MSA' is NOT a '2000sq mile area' - it is the RELEVANT MSA for where you are. It can cover quite a small area, actually, for those of us who know where we are.
2) Since 20 minutes appears to be your limit for retaining safety information, do you also have to 'look down' at the paperwork when an engine goes bang 21 minutes after you briefed/were briefed on the EOSID?
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you briefed/were briefed on the EOSID
I am wary on how many operators have any clue with regards to EO procedures...
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BOAC,
This whole thread is about the original poster's question about the MSA on the approach chart. in the US that is the only definition of MSA. I don't know where to find the definition you're talking about.
This whole thread is about the original poster's question about the MSA on the approach chart. in the US that is the only definition of MSA. I don't know where to find the definition you're talking about.
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And yes, I will absolutely look to verify the EOSID or have the FO call it out to me. When the one-in-million happens I don't know how I will react. Neither do you, unless you've been there. I'll use the tools I have instead of bravado.
Last edited by jriv; 27th Apr 2011 at 04:29.
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- not left out to make you look 'foolish' - left out because you would not know when that is!
You again deliberately take my words out of context. This is becoming a pattern.
I specifically said that if I could not contact ATC I would, in fact, climb to MSA. However, automatically climbing to MSA may cause me to climb into another airplane flying around at MVA.
Finally, I never said 20 minutes was my limit for retaining information. I simply said that I don't think it is reasonable to assume that any person would retain a random number for 20 minutes. It would be far more effective to brief where the high terrain was than all four MSA sectors. As I am capable of using this computer to type this message, it should be clear to any reader that I am capable of retaining information for at least 20 minutes. I believe there is something called "long term memory", or something like that. Or maybe you heard of that and just "forgot?"
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jriv - you need to back off a bit here.
You appear to be the only pilot who doesnt want to take 2 seconds and brief an MSA. For the rest of us it is an SA tool: 'MSA is 5300, mountains are to the west and sea is to the east' What a great way to have the big picture in your mind as to what to do if the sh!t hits the fan.
It doesnt take much.
Nobody has once mentioned refusing a decent below MSA, you are the one harping on about this - I presume you check you min radar vector altitude chart when you get such an instruction - having first realised you are below MSA from the altitude you havent previously checked!
Its all about holes in the cheese. You rely on GPWS if you want, personally, I prefer to use the safeguards that are available to me before I get to that stage.
Complacency about being spoiled by a familiar environment is NOT one of my tools!!!
You appear to be the only pilot who doesnt want to take 2 seconds and brief an MSA. For the rest of us it is an SA tool: 'MSA is 5300, mountains are to the west and sea is to the east' What a great way to have the big picture in your mind as to what to do if the sh!t hits the fan.
It doesnt take much.
Nobody has once mentioned refusing a decent below MSA, you are the one harping on about this - I presume you check you min radar vector altitude chart when you get such an instruction - having first realised you are below MSA from the altitude you havent previously checked!
Its all about holes in the cheese. You rely on GPWS if you want, personally, I prefer to use the safeguards that are available to me before I get to that stage.
Complacency about being spoiled by a familiar environment is NOT one of my tools!!!
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I agree. I started out asking why guys brief it, looking to learn. BOAC got a little nasty and I probably dug in my heels. Your example of mentioning MSA is as it relates to the mountains/sea makes perfect sense. The guys who I fly with who throw it out there and never give it a second thought do not make sense to me.
But once again, I never brought up GPWS. I specifically said I would never use that as a safet net.
But once again, I never brought up GPWS. I specifically said I would never use that as a safet net.
