AF447 wreckage found
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NNW of Antipodes
Age: 80
Posts: 1,330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually, it is > 3,900 meters (13,000 ft).

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mm43, thanks for that information. I think the tires are inflated to about 220 psi but was unsure what the water pressure would be at 13,000 ft. Yes, the tires would obviously be deflated.

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 67
Posts: 1,810
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts

Hi,
In France-Soir (French newspaper) :
Google Vertaling
Original link:
Crash Rio-Paris : Fiasco du bureau d'enquête français | France Soir
In France-Soir (French newspaper) :
Google Vertaling
Original link:
Crash Rio-Paris : Fiasco du bureau d'enquête français | France Soir

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Paris
Posts: 691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by jcjeant
In France-Soir (French newspaper) :
People tend to forget now that this zone was already searched from the start by both SAR aircraft and the two French/US crews onboard the TPL trailers (Fairmount Glacier and Expedition). The main problem was that the recorders pingers could have malfunctioned.
Here is the map from Metron Inc. report for the BEA showing those TPL searches around LKP:


Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
he main problem was that the recorders pingers could have malfunctioned.
The manufacturer's technical brochure does give a detection range, but says the emission covers 80% of a sphere.
That would mean the microphone would have to be lowered by over 2,000 m to have had a chance at locating the pinger.
http://www.benthos.com/pdf/elp362D_001815_revK.pdf

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have you ever tried to find anything underwater in a reasonably challenging environment? I mean even in a spot where the parameters would seem to have it down to a fairly limited area ("it must be around here somewhere...", kind of thing).
Having failed after an initial, frantic, emergency search the group brain kicks in and tells you "it's not here, let's spread out guys". The theories get wilder from there on out.
I've been there, and also (totally coincidentally) personally involved in the final discovery and subsequent recovery 6 months later, which was (somewhat predictably and very much like this case) very, very close to the LKP
Nothing like the AF447 depths though, my experience involved puddle depth, a mere 200 fsw. I consider it fairly amazing they found any further trace mid Atlantic.
I believe the pinger(s) must have been down. There is no other logical explanation for not picking up signals during the first searches, unless I'm missing something totally obvious, generic conspiracy theories notwithstanding.
Whatever, this and the TechLogs original thread have been tremendous, thanks y'all.
Having failed after an initial, frantic, emergency search the group brain kicks in and tells you "it's not here, let's spread out guys". The theories get wilder from there on out.
I've been there, and also (totally coincidentally) personally involved in the final discovery and subsequent recovery 6 months later, which was (somewhat predictably and very much like this case) very, very close to the LKP
Nothing like the AF447 depths though, my experience involved puddle depth, a mere 200 fsw. I consider it fairly amazing they found any further trace mid Atlantic.
I believe the pinger(s) must have been down. There is no other logical explanation for not picking up signals during the first searches, unless I'm missing something totally obvious, generic conspiracy theories notwithstanding.
Whatever, this and the TechLogs original thread have been tremendous, thanks y'all.

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: California Central Coast
Age: 74
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Side scan sonar type
The REMUS 6000 has an Edgetech 4200 side scan as standard. That sonar image is not from an Edgetech 4200, it looks more like a SAS image (synthetic aperture sonar). It is a remarkably good image for such a long (600m) range.
But I repeat - that is a very flat seabed.
But I repeat - that is a very flat seabed.

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: US Virgin & British Virgin,Islands
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AF 447
The pingers were heard by a French submarine,apparently.What is a point of wonder for me is why the area now known as the last known position,was apparently never properly searched by the very best that the World had to offer (as now done).Why spend millions of Euro`s looking all over way away from the LKP in an area which is hostile,with mountains and valleys with equipment that is not able to do the job as has now been done?If they had been looking,with the equipment that they have now,(which was available then)maybe the CVR and the FDR may have been found before they stopped transmitting.Looking for the Aircraft where it "may have ended up" seems to be a reckless endeavour,and not only financially.Why not look where it was supposed by most to be?I get the feeling,having followed this from the upset,that there is more to this investigation and search location then meets the eye with many possible insiders apparently bending the way the search may be conducted.At the present time we have about 6 pictures published and absolutely no information about the so-called Black Boxes,who is on site,what has been discovered,where the aircraft is actually lying (reporters do not have enough financial clout to dive to the area so why not say where the aircraft is----why the mystery).The cause of the accident needs to be peeled away layer by layer,and quickly;Was it an operator error,was it structural due to an overload by way of the vertical stabiliser which was carried away,was it simply an overload which no airframe could cope with?I am simply an unpowered (glider) aircraft operator and I find it very difficult to believe,with what has come to light so far (made worse by little information) that the accident was not caused by loss of the vertical stabiliser due to extreme weather and possibly pilot input in those terrible last moments.Where are the pictures---where are Woods and their underwater probes and why did it take so long for a proper and concerted effort to be put together to find a huge aircraft almost within hailing distance of where she was lost contact with AF maintenance.There is a smell here....The finals will be very interesting.


Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
where are Woods and their underwater probes and why did it take so long for a proper and concerted effort to be put together to find a huge aircraft almost within hailing distance of where she was lost contact with AF maintenance.There is a smell here.
Given that this search has been overseen by the French....


Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: The land of the Rising Sun
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is easy to see those who don't understand the ocean and the sheer difficulty trying to find anything once you get under the surface which is a totally different environment. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, gentlemen but we should remember that the BEA has found the aircraft and done a very fine piece of work. Parading a lack of knowledge is also not the best way to go about things. My training - start at the furthest point that an item could have reached and then work in.
Last edited by Old Carthusian; 8th Apr 2011 at 09:08.

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: US Virgin & British Virgin,Islands
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AF 447
Points taken,guys but two years is a long time....how long did the search to find the SAA Combi off of Mauritius take?
I think,now that the wreckage has finally been found,that the shut-door attitude is quite frustrating for all of the folks on both this and the technical forum.And I am sure that those on the tech forum have input a huge amount of work and research.
Area to search?Given that money is involved I would have started at the last known location and worked outwards,not the other way around!
I think,now that the wreckage has finally been found,that the shut-door attitude is quite frustrating for all of the folks on both this and the technical forum.And I am sure that those on the tech forum have input a huge amount of work and research.
Area to search?Given that money is involved I would have started at the last known location and worked outwards,not the other way around!


Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: us
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Loerie, if you have been reading the tech forum, the answer to your criticism of the search will be found there.
Very simply, search aircraft overflew the location of the crash on the day of the crash (June 1) and saw nothing. Why they saw nothing is a matter that needs to be examined.
But the logical thinking would be if you don't find evidence of the crash on the day of the crash when you overfly the crash location, then the plane didn't crash there. The result of them not seeing evidence on June 1 led them to searching elsewhere in the days, months, and years that followed.
Very simply, search aircraft overflew the location of the crash on the day of the crash (June 1) and saw nothing. Why they saw nothing is a matter that needs to be examined.
But the logical thinking would be if you don't find evidence of the crash on the day of the crash when you overfly the crash location, then the plane didn't crash there. The result of them not seeing evidence on June 1 led them to searching elsewhere in the days, months, and years that followed.

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: US Virgin & British Virgin,Islands
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AF 447
Hi,
Did they not see the Vertical Stabiliser at that point from the air and some passengers and crew from sea level or was that later and well away from the LKP and what of the kerosene trace---that must surely have been from aloft?
I will go back and check,thanks.
Not really complaining or anything,just curious as to why the Woods guys were not called in right away.After all,it has taken them under a week to find the Aircraft very close to where it came down.Would just have thought,and bearing in mind all the difficulties facing deep-water exploration,that possibly more effort and money immediately spent would have worked better.
Thanks for the courteous post and reply.I have been more immersed in the tech side of the forum but do not have that kind of tech to comment----just putting down my frustration at the apparent lack of co-operation apparently from so many,including,from what I read,the Brazilians who seem to have been slow in supplying information to the French investigative body.
On a happier note----nice day in the BVI`s today....!
Cheers.
Did they not see the Vertical Stabiliser at that point from the air and some passengers and crew from sea level or was that later and well away from the LKP and what of the kerosene trace---that must surely have been from aloft?
I will go back and check,thanks.
Not really complaining or anything,just curious as to why the Woods guys were not called in right away.After all,it has taken them under a week to find the Aircraft very close to where it came down.Would just have thought,and bearing in mind all the difficulties facing deep-water exploration,that possibly more effort and money immediately spent would have worked better.
Thanks for the courteous post and reply.I have been more immersed in the tech side of the forum but do not have that kind of tech to comment----just putting down my frustration at the apparent lack of co-operation apparently from so many,including,from what I read,the Brazilians who seem to have been slow in supplying information to the French investigative body.
On a happier note----nice day in the BVI`s today....!

Cheers.

Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The pingers were heard by a French submarine,apparently.

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 81
Posts: 1,461
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Search strategy
My training - start at the furthest point that an item could have reached and then work in.
For an item on the bottom that is not moving, it may not be a good strategy.
The furthest possible position is a guess. The search area should not vary over time (except as new information comes to light) and the LKP is a good starting point (assuming it is reliably known).
Of course, the retrospective analysis approach can always find the flaw in the grand plan that should have been recognized at the beginning.

They did find AF447's resting place though and that fact should be respected.


Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Toulouse
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi guys,
May be one day you'll understand french politics'.
Up to know, nothing, absolutely nothing has been done by chance or coïncidence.
Ref to my previous post to Know about the future (i'm not Ms Irma) ;-)))
May be one day you'll understand french politics'.
Up to know, nothing, absolutely nothing has been done by chance or coïncidence.
Ref to my previous post to Know about the future (i'm not Ms Irma) ;-)))

This thread is a classic example of why I love visiting these forums. I am always looking for ultra-talented people who can be head-hunted for international organisations who currently employ specialists and experts in their fields, who unfortunately don't have a clue.
Despite what the so-called experts will tell you, it seems that locating a downed airliner at 13,000' of Atlantic Ocean is childs play if you know what you're doing. All the finest minds in the various fields were simply incompetent. Our finest PPRuNe contributors should have been called up. All they needed to do was look at the various scopes and detection devices, locate the ping, from there send a scuba diver down to guide the robot submarine towards the wreckage, and while down there, before the SCUBA tank ran out, comprehensively document the cause of the crash, and issue recommendations for all future trans-Atlantic flights to prevent any possible mishap ever again.
Despite what the so-called experts will tell you, it seems that locating a downed airliner at 13,000' of Atlantic Ocean is childs play if you know what you're doing. All the finest minds in the various fields were simply incompetent. Our finest PPRuNe contributors should have been called up. All they needed to do was look at the various scopes and detection devices, locate the ping, from there send a scuba diver down to guide the robot submarine towards the wreckage, and while down there, before the SCUBA tank ran out, comprehensively document the cause of the crash, and issue recommendations for all future trans-Atlantic flights to prevent any possible mishap ever again.

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: glasgow
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts

nojwod,
Don't forget that while sorting out all of the above, they would also find time to spot spelling and grammar mistakes, moan about pay and allowances, and express disbelief that non pilots have the audacity to express an opinion on the mighty Pprune!
It does give us engineers a chuckle though.
Don't forget that while sorting out all of the above, they would also find time to spot spelling and grammar mistakes, moan about pay and allowances, and express disbelief that non pilots have the audacity to express an opinion on the mighty Pprune!
It does give us engineers a chuckle though.
