AF447 wreckage found
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Early Newspaper guessings
Report: Black box data clears Airbus in Air France crash probe
Report: Black box data clears Airbus in Air France crash probe - Monsters and Critics
Report: Black box data clears Airbus in Air France crash probe - Monsters and Critics
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Just read scanhorse's posted link. This paragraph jumped out at me...
'The work of investigators will now consist in determining what happened in the cockpit, and if the errors committed are the sole responsibility of the crew or of Air France, namely in terms of the security procedures imposed by the company,' Le Figaro added.
(my highlighting)
Is the author suggesting the accident was a result of a security breach? Or is it a matter of the nuances of translation in the words for security/safety?
'The work of investigators will now consist in determining what happened in the cockpit, and if the errors committed are the sole responsibility of the crew or of Air France, namely in terms of the security procedures imposed by the company,' Le Figaro added.
(my highlighting)
Is the author suggesting the accident was a result of a security breach? Or is it a matter of the nuances of translation in the words for security/safety?
Last edited by INLAK; 17th May 2011 at 09:51.
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Goggle translation
This is the BEA comuniqee from above post
According to an article in Le Figaro on the evening of Monday, May 16, 2011, the "first elements extracted from the black boxes would put Airbus out of the accident on the A330, Flight 447, which killed 216 passengers and 12 crew members on 1 June 2009.
Tribute to sensationalism by publishing unconfirmed information while exploiting the data flight recorder has just begun is an affront to the respect of passengers and crew members died and causes trouble among the families of victims who have already undergone many announcement effects. The BEA said that, as part of its mission as the authority for safety investigation, only he can communicate on the progress of the investigation. Thus, any information about the investigation from another source is null and void if it has not been confirmed by the BEA.
The collection of all data contained in records voice and flight parameters gives us today is virtually certain that all light will be shed on this incident.
Investigators will now have to analyze and validate various information. This is a long and painstaking and the BEA has already announced he will not issue an interim report before the summer.
At this stage of investigation, no conclusion can be drawn.
According to an article in Le Figaro on the evening of Monday, May 16, 2011, the "first elements extracted from the black boxes would put Airbus out of the accident on the A330, Flight 447, which killed 216 passengers and 12 crew members on 1 June 2009.
Tribute to sensationalism by publishing unconfirmed information while exploiting the data flight recorder has just begun is an affront to the respect of passengers and crew members died and causes trouble among the families of victims who have already undergone many announcement effects. The BEA said that, as part of its mission as the authority for safety investigation, only he can communicate on the progress of the investigation. Thus, any information about the investigation from another source is null and void if it has not been confirmed by the BEA.
The collection of all data contained in records voice and flight parameters gives us today is virtually certain that all light will be shed on this incident.
Investigators will now have to analyze and validate various information. This is a long and painstaking and the BEA has already announced he will not issue an interim report before the summer.
At this stage of investigation, no conclusion can be drawn.
Last edited by scanhorse; 17th May 2011 at 09:31. Reason: BEA
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AF447 épave trouvée
Triste Exemple de Désinformation :
Le Figaro - France : AF 447 : la piste d'une erreur de l'quipage Air France
AF 447 : la piste d'une erreur de l'équipage se confirme
Mots clés : af447, af 447, air france, RIO-paris
Par Fabrice Amedeo
INFO LE FIGARO - Airbus a envoyé mardi matin un télex d'information à l'ensemble des compagnies aériennes de la planète pour leur annoncer que l'analyse des boîtes noires confirmait la fiabilité de l'A330.
Les informations s'échappent au compte goutte du Bureau d'enquêtes et d'analyse (BEA) au Bourget. Dès hier soir, Le Figaro annonçait que les premiers éléments analysés sur les boîtes noires semblaient mettre Airbus hors de cause dans la tragédie qui a couté la vie à 228 personnes le 1er juin 2009. Mardi matin, le scénario semble se confirmer puisqu'Airbus vient d'envoyer un «Accident Information Telex» dont Le Figaro s'est procuré une copie, à l'ensemble de ses clients dans le monde. Le constructeur y indique par la voix de Yannick Malinge, le patron de la sécurité, «qu'à ce stade des analyses préliminaires du Data Flight Recorder (l'enregistreur des paramètres de vol, NDLR), Airbus n'a aucune recommandation immédiate à faire à ses opérateurs. Des mises à jour seront fournies dès que des éléments significatifs seront disponibles ou qu'Airbus sera autorisé à délivrer davantage d'informations en accord avec l'enquête».
Traduction : rien dans les premières analyses des boîtes noires ne donne de raison à Airbus d'alerter ses clients sur une quelconque faille technique de l'A330 ou sur un quelconque changement de procédure. «Airbus a dû être sollicité ce week-end par les enquêteurs du BEA sur certains paramètres de vols et détails techniques découverts dans le DFDR, explique au Figaro un expert en sécurité aérienne. Le haut management d'Airbus doit maintenant avoir une idée assez claire de ce qui s'est passé».
Mardi matin, le constructeur ne faisait aucun commentaire, tout comme Air France qui «attend des éléments fondés et fiables du BEA», selon son porte parole. «Nous devrions en savoir un peu plus dans la journée, explique au Figaro une source gouvernementale. Nous n'avons pas encore eu d'information sur les données du Cockpit Voice Recorder (le CVR qui enregistre les conversations dans le poste de pilotage). Elles devraient être capitales, notamment pour comprendre ce qu'a fait l'équipage».
En effet , DESINFORMATION , car , ce même jour 17 05 2011
PARIS (Reuters) 17 mai 2011 10h30
<<- Aucune conclusion ne peut être tirée à ce stade de l'enquête sur les causes de l'accident du vol AF447 Rio-Paris, qui a coûté la vie à 228 personnes au-dessus de l'Atlantique en juin 2009, déclare mardi le Bureau d'enquêtes et d'analyses (BEA).>>
Le Figaro - France : AF 447 : la piste d'une erreur de l'quipage Air France
AF 447 : la piste d'une erreur de l'équipage se confirme
Mots clés : af447, af 447, air france, RIO-paris
Par Fabrice Amedeo
INFO LE FIGARO - Airbus a envoyé mardi matin un télex d'information à l'ensemble des compagnies aériennes de la planète pour leur annoncer que l'analyse des boîtes noires confirmait la fiabilité de l'A330.
Les informations s'échappent au compte goutte du Bureau d'enquêtes et d'analyse (BEA) au Bourget. Dès hier soir, Le Figaro annonçait que les premiers éléments analysés sur les boîtes noires semblaient mettre Airbus hors de cause dans la tragédie qui a couté la vie à 228 personnes le 1er juin 2009. Mardi matin, le scénario semble se confirmer puisqu'Airbus vient d'envoyer un «Accident Information Telex» dont Le Figaro s'est procuré une copie, à l'ensemble de ses clients dans le monde. Le constructeur y indique par la voix de Yannick Malinge, le patron de la sécurité, «qu'à ce stade des analyses préliminaires du Data Flight Recorder (l'enregistreur des paramètres de vol, NDLR), Airbus n'a aucune recommandation immédiate à faire à ses opérateurs. Des mises à jour seront fournies dès que des éléments significatifs seront disponibles ou qu'Airbus sera autorisé à délivrer davantage d'informations en accord avec l'enquête».
Traduction : rien dans les premières analyses des boîtes noires ne donne de raison à Airbus d'alerter ses clients sur une quelconque faille technique de l'A330 ou sur un quelconque changement de procédure. «Airbus a dû être sollicité ce week-end par les enquêteurs du BEA sur certains paramètres de vols et détails techniques découverts dans le DFDR, explique au Figaro un expert en sécurité aérienne. Le haut management d'Airbus doit maintenant avoir une idée assez claire de ce qui s'est passé».
Mardi matin, le constructeur ne faisait aucun commentaire, tout comme Air France qui «attend des éléments fondés et fiables du BEA», selon son porte parole. «Nous devrions en savoir un peu plus dans la journée, explique au Figaro une source gouvernementale. Nous n'avons pas encore eu d'information sur les données du Cockpit Voice Recorder (le CVR qui enregistre les conversations dans le poste de pilotage). Elles devraient être capitales, notamment pour comprendre ce qu'a fait l'équipage».
En effet , DESINFORMATION , car , ce même jour 17 05 2011
PARIS (Reuters) 17 mai 2011 10h30
<<- Aucune conclusion ne peut être tirée à ce stade de l'enquête sur les causes de l'accident du vol AF447 Rio-Paris, qui a coûté la vie à 228 personnes au-dessus de l'Atlantique en juin 2009, déclare mardi le Bureau d'enquêtes et d'analyses (BEA).>>
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communiqué de presse 17 mai 2011
English translation for the non-francophones:
"According to an article published in Le Figaro in the evening of May 16th, 2011, the “preliminary data extracted from the black boxes”, would clear Airbus from the accident of the A330, flight AF 447,that killed 216 passengers and 12 crew on June 1st, 2009.
Sacrifice to sensationalism, by publishing non-validated information, while data extraction from the recorders is just beginning, is an attempt to the respect towards the deceased passengers and crew and throws confusion among the victim’s families, already affected by the effects of the announcement.
The BEA reminds that, as the safety inquiry authority, it is the only one that may release any informations regarding advancements in the inquiry. Accordingly, any information released by any other source is null, if non validated by the BEA.
The collection of the complete set of voice and flight data, allows us the near certainty that all light will be shed on this accident.
The enquirers must now analyse and validate multiple informations. This is a long and painstaking work and the BEA has already announced that no interim report will be published before summer.
At this stage of the inquiry, no conclusion can be assumed."
English translation for the non-francophones:
"According to an article published in Le Figaro in the evening of May 16th, 2011, the “preliminary data extracted from the black boxes”, would clear Airbus from the accident of the A330, flight AF 447,that killed 216 passengers and 12 crew on June 1st, 2009.
Sacrifice to sensationalism, by publishing non-validated information, while data extraction from the recorders is just beginning, is an attempt to the respect towards the deceased passengers and crew and throws confusion among the victim’s families, already affected by the effects of the announcement.
The BEA reminds that, as the safety inquiry authority, it is the only one that may release any informations regarding advancements in the inquiry. Accordingly, any information released by any other source is null, if non validated by the BEA.
The collection of the complete set of voice and flight data, allows us the near certainty that all light will be shed on this accident.
The enquirers must now analyse and validate multiple informations. This is a long and painstaking work and the BEA has already announced that no interim report will be published before summer.
At this stage of the inquiry, no conclusion can be assumed."
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How do you think Amadeo got this piece of info ? It was a done deal from the start that this informations would be leaked from the BEA.
Does anyone think Airbus would take the risk of sending a worldwide bulletin without some very hard substantiated facts.
The BEA can back pedal all it likes, this was intended Airbus only and it turns out they couldn't wait to clean their name.
Not intended cock up.......but cock up all the same.
All this is going to be very ugly.
Does anyone think Airbus would take the risk of sending a worldwide bulletin without some very hard substantiated facts.
The BEA can back pedal all it likes, this was intended Airbus only and it turns out they couldn't wait to clean their name.
Not intended cock up.......but cock up all the same.
All this is going to be very ugly.
Last edited by Me Myself; 17th May 2011 at 22:18.
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How do you think Amadeo got this peace of info
I don't think there is any genuine concern over the A330 anyway, statistically it's a very safe aircraft and there is no need for anyone to confirm its airworthiness at this point.
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Big Hunch
Kids in cockpit.
One of the pilots had his family in J class.
Mexicana 940, 31 Mar 1986. Wiki has some info.
727 arrived MEX with dragging brake. Departing Capt boarded his family, headed for Disneyland.
This part I heard from people close to the event.
Rather than take a delay for brake or plane change the Capt, with a kid in his lap, used reversers to help the tug push the plane back from the gate.
MEX is at 7350 feet Elev. A full Mexicana 727 would typically rotate when abeam the red runway lights at the 12,000 foot mark of the 13,000 foot runway. Takeoff roll was on the order of 70 seconds. Initial climb was about 500 fpm until gear and TO flaps retracted.
NTSB reported that vaporizing/melting chemicals from the overheated tire combined with oxygen in the compressed air in the tire, and exploded.
Adding to the irony, it was reported that the Captain's wife, in a jumpseat, was a former Mexicana FA whose last prior flight was nearly destroyed by a bomb years before.
One of the pilots had his family in J class.
Mexicana 940, 31 Mar 1986. Wiki has some info.
727 arrived MEX with dragging brake. Departing Capt boarded his family, headed for Disneyland.
This part I heard from people close to the event.
Rather than take a delay for brake or plane change the Capt, with a kid in his lap, used reversers to help the tug push the plane back from the gate.
MEX is at 7350 feet Elev. A full Mexicana 727 would typically rotate when abeam the red runway lights at the 12,000 foot mark of the 13,000 foot runway. Takeoff roll was on the order of 70 seconds. Initial climb was about 500 fpm until gear and TO flaps retracted.
NTSB reported that vaporizing/melting chemicals from the overheated tire combined with oxygen in the compressed air in the tire, and exploded.
Adding to the irony, it was reported that the Captain's wife, in a jumpseat, was a former Mexicana FA whose last prior flight was nearly destroyed by a bomb years before.
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AF447 wreckage found
KAG
While you are entitled to your own opinion(s), as the case may be, that was rude of you to refer to all ladies when you said, "this forum turns pilot to old/uneducated ladies"? Execuse me I was brought up by an uneducated maternal grandmother who was civilized, hard working and compassionate. All my early mannerism as a child, I learnt from this blessed lady. Please do have a little respect for ladies especially the most uneducated considering that they did not have a say or choice in education matters and were only considered as best in the kitchen. Ofcourse these days, things are different. Everyone has learnt learnt to fight for their equal rights though not back in the day.
A lot of them have brought up pretty much cilivilized and educated men through struggles.
Be a little sensitive.
Thank you. Good day!
While you are entitled to your own opinion(s), as the case may be, that was rude of you to refer to all ladies when you said, "this forum turns pilot to old/uneducated ladies"? Execuse me I was brought up by an uneducated maternal grandmother who was civilized, hard working and compassionate. All my early mannerism as a child, I learnt from this blessed lady. Please do have a little respect for ladies especially the most uneducated considering that they did not have a say or choice in education matters and were only considered as best in the kitchen. Ofcourse these days, things are different. Everyone has learnt learnt to fight for their equal rights though not back in the day.
A lot of them have brought up pretty much cilivilized and educated men through struggles.
Be a little sensitive.
Thank you. Good day!
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@ costamaia
The BEA now has published its "official" english version.
Press release on 17 May 2011
You were pretty close
The BEA now has published its "official" english version.
Press release on 17 May 2011
You were pretty close
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I wouldn't expect anything less. Imagine the interpretation of a French investigation team, regarding a French crewed aircraft, operated by a French carrier.
The aircrew are unable to defend themselves. The A330 is in line operation around the globe and cannot be faulted. Air France are THE national carrier and as a result, cannot be implicated.
I am aware I am stating the blatently obvious and this sentiment has been shared before...
The outcome has already been predetermined.
Its how the aviation community deal with the inevitable outcome that is of importance.
This is the essence of Pprune and similar forums.
The aircrew are unable to defend themselves. The A330 is in line operation around the globe and cannot be faulted. Air France are THE national carrier and as a result, cannot be implicated.
I am aware I am stating the blatently obvious and this sentiment has been shared before...
The outcome has already been predetermined.
Its how the aviation community deal with the inevitable outcome that is of importance.
This is the essence of Pprune and similar forums.
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Imagine the interpretation of a French investigation team
This was done in the presence of two German investigators from BFU, an American investigator from NTSB, two British investigators from AAIB and two Brazilian investigators from CENIPA, as well as an officer from the French judicial police and a court expert.
All these guys received French passports over the weekend?
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Locked Door :
Yes, basic "stuff"........ provided there are presentations of attitude by flight instruments on that off chance of a pitch black night perhaps in cloud where a horizon is not remotely visible.... provided there is a stable platform to fly
So far we only have guesses and educated guesses to what those Air France aviators faced those fateful last minutes.
Don't forget there's a recall drill for unreliable airspeed, and it doesn't call for heroics from the pilots. If all else fails 90% N1 and 2.5 degrees nose up in the cruise will keep you safe in almost any heavy jet.
Basic stuff.
Basic stuff.
So far we only have guesses and educated guesses to what those Air France aviators faced those fateful last minutes.
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Quote:
This was done in the presence of two German investigators from BFU, an American investigator from NTSB, two British investigators from AAIB and two Brazilian investigators from CENIPA, as well as an officer from the French judicial police and a court expert.
Shorrick MK2 asks: "All these guys received French passports over the weekend?"
Probably not, but since the recorders spent what, about two weeks enroute to France, the participating agencies had time to decide who would be present and make required travel arrangements.
This was done in the presence of two German investigators from BFU, an American investigator from NTSB, two British investigators from AAIB and two Brazilian investigators from CENIPA, as well as an officer from the French judicial police and a court expert.
Shorrick MK2 asks: "All these guys received French passports over the weekend?"
Probably not, but since the recorders spent what, about two weeks enroute to France, the participating agencies had time to decide who would be present and make required travel arrangements.
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Just read the BEA statement from today. Simply from the tone and voice, e.g. "from another source is null and void", they seem to be under enormous pressure to gain time.
Based on the assumption that by today at last they went through some of the cockpit conversations, I believe they have a very clear picture of where to look next in combination with ACARS and data recorder.
With Airbus being allegedly quick to issue internal Accident Information Telex, I assume there must have been a very significant hint with regard to the combination of factors.
Based on the assumption that by today at last they went through some of the cockpit conversations, I believe they have a very clear picture of where to look next in combination with ACARS and data recorder.
With Airbus being allegedly quick to issue internal Accident Information Telex, I assume there must have been a very significant hint with regard to the combination of factors.
The Tech Log thread on this topic cleared up something that may be useful for this discussion. (Post by Cythera)
"Yannick Malinge, le patron de la sécurité," => Yannick Malinge, Director of Flight Safety
Apparently, the French term used in aviation for "safety" ("sécurité") is often mis-translated into English as "security" rather than "safety." This means that one of the press releases was referring to a safety issue, not a security issue.
Adding to the confusion is that the common translation from English into French for safety is sûreté (thanks to infrequentflyer for that) from which root I think comes "surety bond" in English financial parlance.
So there you have it. In all innocence, the Internet Tower of Babel generates tsunamis of Babble with a single sécurité pebble dropped into the pond.
"Yannick Malinge, le patron de la sécurité," => Yannick Malinge, Director of Flight Safety
Apparently, the French term used in aviation for "safety" ("sécurité") is often mis-translated into English as "security" rather than "safety." This means that one of the press releases was referring to a safety issue, not a security issue.
Adding to the confusion is that the common translation from English into French for safety is sûreté (thanks to infrequentflyer for that) from which root I think comes "surety bond" in English financial parlance.
So there you have it. In all innocence, the Internet Tower of Babel generates tsunamis of Babble with a single sécurité pebble dropped into the pond.
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The French Touch..Well Well
Ok Guys, I am going to tell you what is the tendance regarding this affair.
Few press leaks from BEA (french NTSB) seems to push away Airbus responsability, obviously so quick that we can see the big lie coming out just like we feared it before..
I guess the decision to set the pilot guilty is quite obviously logical, since the crash occured, long time before they finaly opened the orange boxes..
In one afternoon, they got everything they needed to comfort their political choice..
First because, the crew is dead, and cannot talk anymore
Second because it financialy suits to Aibus, Air France and Insurance companies
Third because BEA is paid and managed by ministery of transportations
so the boxes can say whatever they want finaly to serve the most involved.
sorry I am French, but canot stand that (world money law) hypocrisy.
Shame on them!
Few press leaks from BEA (french NTSB) seems to push away Airbus responsability, obviously so quick that we can see the big lie coming out just like we feared it before..
I guess the decision to set the pilot guilty is quite obviously logical, since the crash occured, long time before they finaly opened the orange boxes..
In one afternoon, they got everything they needed to comfort their political choice..
First because, the crew is dead, and cannot talk anymore
Second because it financialy suits to Aibus, Air France and Insurance companies
Third because BEA is paid and managed by ministery of transportations
so the boxes can say whatever they want finaly to serve the most involved.
sorry I am French, but canot stand that (world money law) hypocrisy.
Shame on them!
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@dvclama
The fact that Airbus claims it has no responsibility in the crash does not mean that the aircraft had no problem before it crashed.
When an aircraft is designed, there are many mitigating systems that are aimed at helping the crew coping with systems failure, and there appear to have been some failures according to the number of ACARS messages sent.
Now, there has been more failures than the ACARS messages suggest, or their was a mismanagement of the failure messages by the crew.
Indeed, the crew has procedures to follow in case of abnormal situations; these procedures are certified by the authorities suggesting they meet the current safety standards.
The question we have to ask is why couldn't the crew recover from an apparent loss of control? Did they lose situational awareness? Will this lead to new design rules with regards to cockpit design? Could the crew cope with the workload they were faced with?
The fact that Airbus claims it has no responsibility in the crash does not mean that the aircraft had no problem before it crashed.
When an aircraft is designed, there are many mitigating systems that are aimed at helping the crew coping with systems failure, and there appear to have been some failures according to the number of ACARS messages sent.
Now, there has been more failures than the ACARS messages suggest, or their was a mismanagement of the failure messages by the crew.
Indeed, the crew has procedures to follow in case of abnormal situations; these procedures are certified by the authorities suggesting they meet the current safety standards.
The question we have to ask is why couldn't the crew recover from an apparent loss of control? Did they lose situational awareness? Will this lead to new design rules with regards to cockpit design? Could the crew cope with the workload they were faced with?