A320: (PNF) Foot on Rudder Pedals (during Taxi, T/O and LDG)

[Jonty]

I have my feet on the ruder pedals during take off and landing. I even waggle them to see if the PF is awake. Should I not be doing this?

[Bus Driver Man]

..don't be so shure. Doing some researches long time ago, they found out that there was sometimes already a slight - but nevertheless - an actual and feelable input on the sidestick from the pilot while just using the toggle-switch for doing calls, which has, while on manual flight, always to be corrected by the PF -

Ok, but wouldn't this be noticed by a dual input signal? Then it would be quite clear that there was an inadvertent movement.

Seems to me that this can happen when your press the PTT switch without properly grabbing the sidestick. If you just press it, you apply a backward force which can move the stick. While on the other hand, if you grab the sidestick while pressing the PTT switch you automatically apply a counter force which should keep the stick neutral.

[BOAC]

Typical Airbus oiks! Etiquette on the 737 has PNF use the console PTT while PF valiantly wrestles with the aeroplane so as not to interfere with the delicate touches of the master..

[grounded27]

Finally, how fast do you taxi in your company that you think instant corrective action might be necessary

Thread drift. I noticed during a Hajj that some middle eastern/asian pilots taxied at V1. Can anyone operating in this region confirm this as normal or is it just the mass cattle car convention that has everyone hauling ass to pick up another load of pilgrims?

[Airbus_a321]

@boac
.....that was one suggestion after noticing those inputs... to use the INT/RAD switch on the ACP while handflying

@Busdriverman...Ok, but wouldn't this be noticed by a dual input signal

no, if there is no actual input at this time. and there shouldn't be any permanent inputs while handflying. but this you know. adjust and release.

[BOAC]

.that was one suggestion after noticing those inputs... to use the INT/RAD switch on the ACP while handflying

-aye! When I were a lad 'twould have been smack round the head with a rolled up Daily Telegraph if I sinned

[Upper Air]

A37575

LOL!

Loved yer post!!

[Upper Air]

smack round the `ead

Love it!!!

[Ndicho Moja]

smack around the 'ead

You mean it hasn't changed? I thought that was what CRM and touchie feely was all about....effective communication It is way better than the old "Oh what is he doing now" routine.

[rigpiggy]

Having had an F/O trying to run the show the other day i agree with 35757.

From resetting the throttles to the "most captains do it this way" , but they couldn't hold +/- 200 ft, or 10 degrees on the approach. Though they did congratulate me on my old school NDB approach.

Today my F/O was a piece of cake, I ask 2 things don't kill me, or get me violated!

[kick the tires]

From the Orange Manual:

PNF should cover the controls once the RA is alive. This means that feet should be in the vicinity of the rudder pedals but not applying any force.

The side-stick should be covered, but care should be taken so that no inputs are made.

[malaysiacadet]

i noticed whenever i fly with Ex-Military guys,
i always have auto-rudder inputs during crosswind landings......, i flare slightly lower below the recommended height of 30ft RA(i reduce the sink rate at 30ft ra, and wait a bit before i flare fully). and some ex military guys gets nervous and pulls the stick at the exact same moment i pull, and we get Dual-Input, aircraft pitches up more than it should all of sudden.. and floated, soon after, the speed start bleeding off and the aircraft sank.. WHAM!!...

i would just pretend nothing happened(although i can clearly hear dual input and see the greenlight flashing) and tell the captain.. wow.. did u notice the sudden pitch up just now?

for some reasons, i get this mostly from ex-military guys..... it seems that to them,only they know how to fly.. and these people always tries to neutralize the crab angle and fly with cross-control inputs at approx 150ft RA to touchdown on an Airbus......

[411A]

As a First Officer, I always keep my feet on the pedals when the captain is taxying and flying manual.

Not on my aircraft you wouldn't be.

Nor on my aircraft.
Furthermore, if said First Officer tried it again, they would be turfed out of the company, pronto.

[Dream Land]

Yes this habit annoys the heck out of me, but someone somewhere is obviously teaching cadets to do this, I now try to be very diplomatic, our SOP's back me up.

For us, the only person that backs up the other pilot is the captain.

Cheers, D.L.

[capt. solipsist]

Quote:
As a First Officer, I always keep my feet on the pedals when the captain is taxying and flying manual.

Not on my aircraft you wouldn't be.

Quote:
Nor on my aircraft.
Furthermore, if said First Officer tried it again, they would be turfed out of the company, pronto.

Nor on ours. You're gonna be slapped with heaps of reports from captains as exhibiting dangerous characteristics if you do.

Know the difference between "being on guard" and intervention.

[RA-alive]

Few check pilots & trainers in our airline suggest to keep it hands adjacent o the sidestick or tiller but not hold it firmly... Also in simple words be ready to take over like during side stick fault or tiller failure to take over.. also for rudders when docking in at the parking stand the F/O notices the right would not be completely clear & has to jump on the brakes to avoid damage.
But i do apologise if it dont make sense, as am just learning the ropes On the Bus..

[chopchop7]

Interesting reading the posts guys.

A Captain making inputs routinely while the FO flies can mean either, that he lacks confidence in himself or he is just plain arrogant. Hopefully, such Captains are a minority. In routine fair weather operations, the PMs hands or feet on controls is a nuisance never mind who is PF.

But there definitely is a need for the Capt to be alert in the crucial phases, should things start to go out of the FOs hands as sometimes they do. Being alert may range from just watching to following on controls or even taking over in condns like gusting winds, rain or the likes. There is nothing to feel offended about here. After all if FOs were as good as Captains, they would be Captains.

With the Capt as PF, there have been instances when a low experience Captain in bad weather has got much help from the FO; and therefore the total experience rule. Even so, if its a bad situation, the FO calls for a go around. The FO keeping his feet or hands on controls is entirely useless and he should be asked to keep off until a rare case of an incapacitated Capt.

So a Capt following on controls in critical phases with the FO flying should be fine, but when the Capt flies, it is safest if the FO just keeps clear... almost always.

[Upper Air]

CRM in aspic

smack around the 'ead
You mean it hasn't changed? I thought that was what CRM and touchie feely was all about....effective communication It is way better than the old "Oh what is he doing now" routine.




Don`t tease me. . .

[fdr]

duelling controls

Under FAA check criteria it would be a simple fail. 2 crew on controls at same time = fail. Thats what a control handover is about.

I checked a crew once on a B744 and after a horrible landing by the FO duly chastised by the Captain, the PIC finally asked if I had any comments... to which I just asked who had logged the landing... the PIC promptly attributed it to the FO, so then I wondered openly why the PIC was trimming the aircraft from 200' through to the middle of the flare. This is bad at so many levels it's hard to work out where to begin.

There is precious little that needs split second response, in fact a substantial number of the pilot induced scrapes I have investigated have resulted from incorrect but instantaneous responses (where the pilots have been aware of anything going on... which is a subset of the total events...). Of those events that need split second responses, most cannot be saved once the wrong input has been applied, and a failure of a handover/takeover just exacerbates a large proportion of these.

Interesting comment by one of the posters, that they put their hands/feet on the controls when PNF/PM but resents it when the other pilot does the same when they are PF...


Control check is another matter, the books (Boeing) require the rudder check to have both pilots touching the pedals to ensure their control throw is adequate

[John Citizen]

After all if FOs were as good as Captains, they would be Captains

I disagree.

Though sure in general, Captains are :
- are better than FO's
- are more experienced
- been trained more
- more knowledgable

However there always are exceptions.

I had a captain once who :
- rarely did any paperwork
- never did a walk around (he was busy smoking)
- didn't follow SOP very well and didn't care either (probably didn't know the SOP's anyway)
- regularly exceeded limits
- flew rather poorly

Now how can the above quoted statement be true ?

I am nothing special as an FO but I think it wouldn't be hard for most FO's to be better than this particular Captain.

He was a Captain because he knew the right people (old boys club) and FO's who were not part of the boys club did not ever become a Captain.