jet/bird evasive action
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It appears that the fascination with 60° has been exhausted for most.
To echo another poster's observation, it is not very useful to descend into name-calling and arm-waving.
Perhaps the thread could return to the more sensible and directed discussion on what is an important topic ?
To echo another poster's observation, it is not very useful to descend into name-calling and arm-waving.
Perhaps the thread could return to the more sensible and directed discussion on what is an important topic ?
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I think the best way to avoid birds is to look as far in front of your windscreen as possible and not let those little dots become big dots so your evasive action can be minimal, not drastic. It always worked for me. We somedays had to dodge hundreds of big buzzards in multiple flocks by using this technique. I know cockpit workload can make this difficult but getting the busy work done before entering the bird infested area can give you more time to see and avoid them. My neighbor was killed in his F16 hitting a turkey buzzard at 500 ft at high speed when it hit his canopy and knocked him out.
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I think the best way to avoid birds is to look as far in front of your windscreen as possible and not let those little dots become big dots so your evasive action can be minimal, not drastic.
Perhaps this is the best reason to be hand flying your aircraft down low in VFR conditions, and not letting "Iron Mike" do it. You need all the response time you can get.
Generally 45 degrees is the accepted stall protection bank angle limit....remeber this; it may just be safer in certain cases to just hit the birds...
just to add
Sevenstrokeroll =boom shaka laka laka....
just to add
Sevenstrokeroll =boom shaka laka laka....
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 7th Mar 2011 at 19:18.
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Wings level, close your eyes, and pray(or hope for the non-religious). 
Flown by, or through, hundreds, if not thousands of birds during a 30+ yr career. Total hits probably still in the single digits. Amount of manueverings, except for slight pitch changes, to avoid said birds? Zero.
CCS/SVMI Caracas, Venezuela has lots of big birds. You can see them. If you want to avoid them completely you have to land somewhere else. Otherwise you just plow through them and things seem to work out. Apparently the birds read Charles Darwin.
Flown by, or through, hundreds, if not thousands of birds during a 30+ yr career. Total hits probably still in the single digits. Amount of manueverings, except for slight pitch changes, to avoid said birds? Zero.
CCS/SVMI Caracas, Venezuela has lots of big birds. You can see them. If you want to avoid them completely you have to land somewhere else. Otherwise you just plow through them and things seem to work out. Apparently the birds read Charles Darwin.
Last edited by misd-agin; 7th Mar 2011 at 19:12. Reason: added emoticon
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I can't imagine a pilot losing control of his aircraft dodging a bird. Most of my encounters were below 3,000 ft AFL and in a turkey vulture infested valley. I am sure if I had just flown through them I would have had many engine failures as had many of our management pilots. They were check airmen and doing a lot of inside the cockpit instructing so were distracted. Any pilot that flies through a flock of big buzzards thinking luck will be with him and not bother to avoid them will be in for a big surprise and a grounded airplane. Hope luck is on your side. Avoidance really isn't that hard. I have been below 1,000 ft on final fully configured with a buzzard in my path so avoided him first and then decided if I could still land or had to go around. Sully probably never saw the geese or he wouldn't have made history.
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Most encounters with the buzzards were above 160 knots entering downwind and with hundreds of arrivals never hit a bird by avoiding them. Pilots who think you can't avoid them aren't looking out the window.
Last edited by bubbers44; 8th Mar 2011 at 20:36.
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When I say 'plow through them' I'm not talking about an identified flock of birds that when seen early enough is avoidable.
So there's the balance, sometimes you can see them and generate seperation by slight flight path adjustments. Other times, IMO the vast majority, it's plow through the random scatterings of birds.
How many engine failures did CKA have going into TGU?
So there's the balance, sometimes you can see them and generate seperation by slight flight path adjustments. Other times, IMO the vast majority, it's plow through the random scatterings of birds.
How many engine failures did CKA have going into TGU?
Last edited by misd-agin; 8th Mar 2011 at 12:02. Reason: spelling
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I don't know because I haven't done it in over 7 years. One time it was a bird ingestion that grounded the airplane for a day or two to get a mechanic to borescope and check for blade damage. One time it was a bird that hit the leading edge of the wing sticking there and the leading edge slats were damaged retracting the flaps. No engine was shut down to my knowledge because if possible that required a diversion. Both of these events took the plane out of service and both were flown by check pilots. One day on short final I came really close to a bird so opened up the cockpit window to verify we hadn't hit it before retracting the flaps. I don't blame them for what happened because they are busy checking out pilots and are distracted while doing their check pilot duties. I wouldn't want their job at that airport.
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Birdbrain.
1. Old RAF saying, "birds always break down" in the effort to gain energy and avoid the big metal bird they are about to ingest, so don't follow them?!
2. Many moons ago the RAF Dominie (Bae 125 bizjet flying classroom) Flight Safety Officer noticed most of that Sqn's birdstrikes were in the aerodrome circuit pattern at 180 kts and below, though the training task required much low flying at 500' MSD at up to 240 kts in the low flying areas of UK and abroad. The difference he attributed to the SOP use of the very bright landing lights in the low flying areas to avoid ingesting Bucanneers, Jaguars, Hawks, Jet Provosts and the like.
3. The SOP for circuit/landing use only prescribed the taxi lights for conspicuity, so the FSO worked hard to persuade the Standards and Training Flight instructors to trial SOP with bright landing lights for circuit and landing use. Having overcome the "not invented here" syndrome, the procedure was trialled and resulted in a REDUCTION IN STRIKE RATE. The complaint that the use of the lights consumed expensive filaments and if forgotten after landing they melting the leading edge perspex cover was treated with the contempt it deserved.
4. The B73NG weather radar radhaz distance for humans is quoted as 15 metres so I very much doubt it is irritating our feathered friends at this range and beyond, though you should be performing a confidence check on taxy out anyway, so might as well leave it on........? The old high radiation power BAC111 "Orange Porridge" weather radars may have been more like poultry microwavers and therefore effective but I have yet to read definitive research on the topic.
5. Too many flying hours and years later my own strike rate is luckily low from following the bright lights policy, deciding I will NEVER duck (no pun intended!) below the approaching flock, and should the multiple encounter with strikes occur my intention is to put the aircraft on the ground ASAP and not to hope that the damaged engines will continue to perform during a go-around.
6. Can anyone supply a link to the RYR B738 accident report at Rome Ciampino for our further education?
7. The 60 deg AOB manoeuvre was a joke wasn't it, just to wind us all up and very effective too............!!!???
2. Many moons ago the RAF Dominie (Bae 125 bizjet flying classroom) Flight Safety Officer noticed most of that Sqn's birdstrikes were in the aerodrome circuit pattern at 180 kts and below, though the training task required much low flying at 500' MSD at up to 240 kts in the low flying areas of UK and abroad. The difference he attributed to the SOP use of the very bright landing lights in the low flying areas to avoid ingesting Bucanneers, Jaguars, Hawks, Jet Provosts and the like.
3. The SOP for circuit/landing use only prescribed the taxi lights for conspicuity, so the FSO worked hard to persuade the Standards and Training Flight instructors to trial SOP with bright landing lights for circuit and landing use. Having overcome the "not invented here" syndrome, the procedure was trialled and resulted in a REDUCTION IN STRIKE RATE. The complaint that the use of the lights consumed expensive filaments and if forgotten after landing they melting the leading edge perspex cover was treated with the contempt it deserved.
4. The B73NG weather radar radhaz distance for humans is quoted as 15 metres so I very much doubt it is irritating our feathered friends at this range and beyond, though you should be performing a confidence check on taxy out anyway, so might as well leave it on........? The old high radiation power BAC111 "Orange Porridge" weather radars may have been more like poultry microwavers and therefore effective but I have yet to read definitive research on the topic.
5. Too many flying hours and years later my own strike rate is luckily low from following the bright lights policy, deciding I will NEVER duck (no pun intended!) below the approaching flock, and should the multiple encounter with strikes occur my intention is to put the aircraft on the ground ASAP and not to hope that the damaged engines will continue to perform during a go-around.
6. Can anyone supply a link to the RYR B738 accident report at Rome Ciampino for our further education?
7. The 60 deg AOB manoeuvre was a joke wasn't it, just to wind us all up and very effective too............!!!???
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6. Can anyone supply a link to the RYR B738 accident report at Rome Ciampino
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Birdbrain.
Thank you for the RYR Ciampino link, but I was hoping to read the report on the RYR multiple birdstrike at Ciampino, where I gather the crew tried to follow the Eng Failure on Approach as per QRH/FCTM etc advice.
This is only a valid course of action if at least ONE of the TWO engines responds to a required thrust demand-apparently both of theirs had quit.
The Prune thread at the time shows a photo of an airframe which may never fly again, more importantly everyone walked away or was assisted so to do!
In a year where 3 twin engined aircraft suffered powerplant failure close to the ground, I had hoped those eggspurts who tell us the best way of flying our aircraft could have shown more urgency in researching/revising & publishing the latest recommendations to the pilot community before the next event occurs, as it inevitably will?
There is no reason to suppose the report is locked away in MO'Ls safe as it appears the crew did a magnificent job on the day, or maybe it's because he doesn't want piloting skills to be praised after his widely published comments on our fraternity?????
This is only a valid course of action if at least ONE of the TWO engines responds to a required thrust demand-apparently both of theirs had quit.
The Prune thread at the time shows a photo of an airframe which may never fly again, more importantly everyone walked away or was assisted so to do!
In a year where 3 twin engined aircraft suffered powerplant failure close to the ground, I had hoped those eggspurts who tell us the best way of flying our aircraft could have shown more urgency in researching/revising & publishing the latest recommendations to the pilot community before the next event occurs, as it inevitably will?
There is no reason to suppose the report is locked away in MO'Ls safe as it appears the crew did a magnificent job on the day, or maybe it's because he doesn't want piloting skills to be praised after his widely published comments on our fraternity?????
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A future solution for bird ingestion
Imagine an engine mounted a bit lower than the one at the empennage of a MD-11, only with the intake assembled low as in the F-16 featuring a material that would allow a bird to pass through in case of a "nose up" attitude...the fuselage itself would protect the engine intake. It is possible to imagine a thin grid in front of the rear engines which woud trigger some device to deflect a bird away from the engine intake too. As fast as an air bag.
By the way, is there any register of a bird ingestion / bird strike during the night? I guess flying at night offers far less chances to find birds ahead.
I had no idea that birds could feel the RADAR, that's very interesting.
By the way, is there any register of a bird ingestion / bird strike during the night? I guess flying at night offers far less chances to find birds ahead.
I had no idea that birds could feel the RADAR, that's very interesting.
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I had no idea that birds could feel the RADAR, that's very interesting.
CJ
Last edited by ChristiaanJ; 15th Apr 2011 at 15:49. Reason: typo
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Analysis of data shows that the bird strike rate is higher at night than during the day.
And once again, I can confirm it is an urban legend that aircraft weather radar systems can be detected by birds.
And once again, I can confirm it is an urban legend that aircraft weather radar systems can be detected by birds.
