Aircraft without a loss of oil pressure procedure
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I have been following this thread with mostly a casual interest, until I read this.
I will readily admit that I have not flown a turbo-prop in quite some time. However, when I attended MU-2 training at Flight Safety International we did, as part of the in-flight training program shut down an engine in flight. This was done to demonstrate the NTS, Negative Toque Sensing, system on the engine. Please note I said engine, not aircraft. All TPE-331 engines have this system no matter the airframe they are installed on.
The NTS demonstration was performed around 15,000. The CRS switch is moved to the stop position shutting the fuel off to the engine. Almost instantly the propeller would go to a near feathering position, about 90% (or somewhere near that figure) of full feather. Then the pilot would complete the total feather procedure by feathering the prop.
Therefore, even though I am not Guppy, I have provided the answer you requested. Yes running engines on actual aircraft were intentionally shut down by shutting off the fuel to the engine and the school was Flight Safety International.
You have heard of Flight Safety International, have you not?
Oh, the turbo-props I have flown are; MU-2 J-K-L-M and Kingair 90s-200s.
One more point. You are aware of course that you can start a PT-6 and prevent the prop from moving, either by using an installed prop brake or tyeing the prop down where it cannot move.
I've been doing this long enough, especially as an MEII to tell you that LAST thing you do is take up Jets and Tprops, and do shutdowns......flight idle simulates a feathered prop or a dead engine just fine.
To prove this point Guppy has only to provide the name of ONE training provider, that takes up real Jets and Turboprops to perform shutdowns, taking the chance with million dollar gear to fly around on one engine, cavitating the mechanical fuel pump for training purposes.
To prove this point Guppy has only to provide the name of ONE training provider, that takes up real Jets and Turboprops to perform shutdowns, taking the chance with million dollar gear to fly around on one engine, cavitating the mechanical fuel pump for training purposes.
The NTS demonstration was performed around 15,000. The CRS switch is moved to the stop position shutting the fuel off to the engine. Almost instantly the propeller would go to a near feathering position, about 90% (or somewhere near that figure) of full feather. Then the pilot would complete the total feather procedure by feathering the prop.
Therefore, even though I am not Guppy, I have provided the answer you requested. Yes running engines on actual aircraft were intentionally shut down by shutting off the fuel to the engine and the school was Flight Safety International.
You have heard of Flight Safety International, have you not?
Oh, the turbo-props I have flown are; MU-2 J-K-L-M and Kingair 90s-200s.
One more point. You are aware of course that you can start a PT-6 and prevent the prop from moving, either by using an installed prop brake or tyeing the prop down where it cannot move.
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I can't read the posts of the posters that con-pilot quoted, as I've blocked them (put them on my ignore list). However, I didn't provide the names of any training providers that performed inflight shutdowns. I did address one training organization invoked by one of the blocked posters, however (FSI), as has con-pilot, and when they did live inflight training, they did do shutdowns.
Every operator with whom I've flown, and every training department with which I've flown (there have been many), including private, corporate, government, training organizations, etc, that has provided inflight training, has performed engine shutdowns. Every single one.
I recently performed a test flight in the airplane I'm currently flying (a fairly large turbofan multi-engine airplane), in which each engine was shut down, one at a time, in flight, and restarted. Upon returning to the ramp, the final shutdown was performed using the fire handles as a function of the test flight, which was a maintenance test operation. Test of the fire handles to shut down the airplane, stop the hydraulic flow, and interrupt pneumatic flow and electrical power, was a necessary requirement as part of the test hop, and is regularly done. It does not harm the engine, did not harm the engine, and was part of the act of returning the aircraft to service following maintenance.
As previously stated, I've performed inflight engine shutdowns in conjuntion with training in nearly every type of engine I have operated or worked on...every single one an acceptable and approved operation, including required shutdowns during FAA checkrides. It's something I've required as a check airman, and that's been required of me to require, by the FAA, when conducting a checkride.
The pilot who is afraid to shut down an engine in flight, particularly an engine he thinks is "making metal," for fear of hurting the fuel pump, is very poorly trained, and an idiot. Particularly in light of the fact that the manufacturer approves the shutdown, it's a routine procedure, it won't hurt the engine, and it's the appropriate action for the problem the poster believed had occurred.
Every operator with whom I've flown, and every training department with which I've flown (there have been many), including private, corporate, government, training organizations, etc, that has provided inflight training, has performed engine shutdowns. Every single one.
I recently performed a test flight in the airplane I'm currently flying (a fairly large turbofan multi-engine airplane), in which each engine was shut down, one at a time, in flight, and restarted. Upon returning to the ramp, the final shutdown was performed using the fire handles as a function of the test flight, which was a maintenance test operation. Test of the fire handles to shut down the airplane, stop the hydraulic flow, and interrupt pneumatic flow and electrical power, was a necessary requirement as part of the test hop, and is regularly done. It does not harm the engine, did not harm the engine, and was part of the act of returning the aircraft to service following maintenance.
As previously stated, I've performed inflight engine shutdowns in conjuntion with training in nearly every type of engine I have operated or worked on...every single one an acceptable and approved operation, including required shutdowns during FAA checkrides. It's something I've required as a check airman, and that's been required of me to require, by the FAA, when conducting a checkride.
The pilot who is afraid to shut down an engine in flight, particularly an engine he thinks is "making metal," for fear of hurting the fuel pump, is very poorly trained, and an idiot. Particularly in light of the fact that the manufacturer approves the shutdown, it's a routine procedure, it won't hurt the engine, and it's the appropriate action for the problem the poster believed had occurred.
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But you know it's really moot...if you haven't been responsible for a plane, to fly it and maintain it...be there on a Saturday, trying to find some tires for a Monday flight...your not going to get where I am coming from....
So please do not assume to consider me not knowledgeable on this subject.
One more point, I never had to worry about finding tires for an aircraft on a Saturday for a flight on Monday. I always assured that we had a complete set of spare tires for all aircraft plus many other spare parts for all the aircraft. All real professional Chief Pilots/Flight Department managers do so.
Oh, by the way, I am one of those 21,000 hour pilots and I can take anything you can dish out. Try me.
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I agree on having spare tires in the hangar....but sometimes on a contract flight you show up to a jet that has a bald spot and it's the mad rush to get the plane airworthy ASAP....I can't control what the other idiot does...but I am often called in to clean it up...It's a living.
I don't need to try you out Con...either what you say here makes sense or it doesn't..Resumes on the net are unverifiable...so save the 'been there done that'...
I don't need to try you out Con...either what you say here makes sense or it doesn't..Resumes on the net are unverifiable...so save the 'been there done that'...
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In-Flight Shutdowns
I know of no multi-engined aeroplane in service on which an in-flight engine shutdown is prohibited. I also believe that there is no barrier to shutting down an engine as a precautionary measure and re-starting it at a later stage of the flight. Obviously, an engine which was shutdown in the event of an emergency, such as engine fire, uncontrollable propeller, etc would not be restarted unless some far greater emergency existed. My reciprocating multi-engine experience is limited to C47/DC-3 (P&W R1830) and Bristol Freighter (Bristol Hercules Sleeve Valve) aircraft. Multi-engine jets include Canberra bomber (RR Avon turbojet) and Meteor fighters (RR Derwent turbojet), turbo-prop multi-engine C130's (T56), Multi-engine TurboFan B707 (JT3D-3B) L1011 & B747 (Both RR RB211's). None of the above engines could not be shut down and restarted. In fact the T56 equipped P3 Orion often loiters on station on 3 engines, the engine being restarted when required. I think what is implied regarding "cavitation of fuel pumps" is that where an engine has been shutdown with the fuel supply shut off, and is unable to be feathered for whatever reason, may lead to secondary damage. The situation obviously would/could have far more implications than simply damaging an engine driven fuel pump. All the name calling too and fro is not enhancing the debate nor the standing of the combatants. 
BTW, practice engine failure by shutting down the engine was/is discouraged due to the number of times such practice led to loss of aircraft and life, the events being far too numerous to list.
BTW, practice engine failure by shutting down the engine was/is discouraged due to the number of times such practice led to loss of aircraft and life, the events being far too numerous to list.
Last edited by Old Fella; 11th Dec 2010 at 22:37.
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i think we have to differ between a training and precautionary shutdown.
and i think we basicly can agree that a shutdown and restart of an healthy engine inflight is technically possible, on pistons, turboprops, big turbofans.
a precautionary shutdown is of course always pilots decision and there is not much to discuss.
a training shutdown, and here i can speak just for my experiece as well european rules, is not allowed. i am not sure how it is regulated e.g in the USA.
the insurance simply will not cover such a thing.
in europe you need a typerating even on smaller multiturbine planes , and here you do not have many simulators for that this so you often perform the rating on type. on the conquest II we have put one engine just in idle since fully feathering a garrett means also to shut it . the NTS system can be checked on ground and we never tested it inflight
on the cheyenne III we feathered the prop but kept the engine running ( the two shaft free turbine design makes it possible)
on the BAE146 in my airline time all such things were performed in a simulator in manchester and on the real plane we never put an engine even in idle for training purposes. the line checks cover normal procedures as well theoretical knowledge- for the rest go into a simulator.
you may find people who shut "illegally" at small turboprops for training purposes- or maybe in other regions there other rules and behaviours, so maybe some statements above are correct. the military may also have other rules.
but- in nowadays forget any story written above that on a line check anybody shuts intentionally an engine at a big airliner by e.g pulling the fire handle , that are laughful stories. i bet you will not find one video at youtube where lets say in a real 777 or 747 the checker pulls the fire handle on a line check. it would be his last.
i am wondering that anybody who really earns his money with aviation believes that "check airman" stories written above instead of laughing about it. again- try in nowadays at united airlines to shut inflight intentionally a turbine of a widebody airliner for training ... show me that captain or line checker...
on the BAE146 we from time to time put on ground and the engine off the fire handle to its first detent to check the bleed air valve trips and the fuel supply also. pulling the second detent of course would mean to fire the bottle... thats not pretty.
when it comes to "hurt" a turbine by an inflight shut... well, in my opinion its nor dramatic neither healthy. on a singleshaft turbine design ( tpe331, T56) all turning things inside the engine stand still when the prop does and all is fine. in a multishaft turboprop or a turbofan you have a windmilling . here you may be restricted to a windmilling without proper lubrication.
on pistons you also have to consider the shock cooling of the cylinderheads.
cheers !
and i think we basicly can agree that a shutdown and restart of an healthy engine inflight is technically possible, on pistons, turboprops, big turbofans.
a precautionary shutdown is of course always pilots decision and there is not much to discuss.
a training shutdown, and here i can speak just for my experiece as well european rules, is not allowed. i am not sure how it is regulated e.g in the USA.
the insurance simply will not cover such a thing.
in europe you need a typerating even on smaller multiturbine planes , and here you do not have many simulators for that this so you often perform the rating on type. on the conquest II we have put one engine just in idle since fully feathering a garrett means also to shut it . the NTS system can be checked on ground and we never tested it inflight
on the cheyenne III we feathered the prop but kept the engine running ( the two shaft free turbine design makes it possible)
on the BAE146 in my airline time all such things were performed in a simulator in manchester and on the real plane we never put an engine even in idle for training purposes. the line checks cover normal procedures as well theoretical knowledge- for the rest go into a simulator.
you may find people who shut "illegally" at small turboprops for training purposes- or maybe in other regions there other rules and behaviours, so maybe some statements above are correct. the military may also have other rules.
but- in nowadays forget any story written above that on a line check anybody shuts intentionally an engine at a big airliner by e.g pulling the fire handle , that are laughful stories. i bet you will not find one video at youtube where lets say in a real 777 or 747 the checker pulls the fire handle on a line check. it would be his last.
i am wondering that anybody who really earns his money with aviation believes that "check airman" stories written above instead of laughing about it. again- try in nowadays at united airlines to shut inflight intentionally a turbine of a widebody airliner for training ... show me that captain or line checker...
on the BAE146 we from time to time put on ground and the engine off the fire handle to its first detent to check the bleed air valve trips and the fuel supply also. pulling the second detent of course would mean to fire the bottle... thats not pretty.
when it comes to "hurt" a turbine by an inflight shut... well, in my opinion its nor dramatic neither healthy. on a singleshaft turbine design ( tpe331, T56) all turning things inside the engine stand still when the prop does and all is fine. in a multishaft turboprop or a turbofan you have a windmilling . here you may be restricted to a windmilling without proper lubrication.
on pistons you also have to consider the shock cooling of the cylinderheads.
cheers !
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I was an airport kid. I bicycled 15 miles to the airport every night after school let out as a kid...(here)
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...I grew up washing and waxing airplanes...(here)
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...I began flying as a teenager... (here)
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...I started and ran an aerial advertising business. I only did banner towing...(here)
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...I used to fly a large four engine bomber...(here)
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I used to fly B-24's.(here)
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Several of the aircraft I used to fly employed piston APU's...(here)
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I have had a couple of chances to go fly an airship...(here)
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...I do fly the Air Tractor AT-802, a single engine tailwheel airplane...(here)
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...I just got furloughed off the 747... I don't anticipate finding a job in a 747 again soon, if ever...(here)
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...I am an engineer... I am also a pilot. I also happen to have had a number of years professional experience as a firefighter...(here)
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I'm presently current on 9 different aircraft, but with over 80 different aircraft over the past X number of years.(here)
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I've operated a number of Cessna 206's, 207's, 210's, 310's, 414's, 421's; Piper Navajos, Senecas, etc...(here)
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I used to do tours of the Grand Canyon in Cessna 207's.(here)
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...I hold five different FAA certificates...Over the course of my career I've served frequently as a mechanic, and inspector. I'm doing that very thing now...(here)
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...I operate globally and in every climate and location save for Antarctica...(here)
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I'm very big on safety glasses. I keep a respirator in my toolbox, and even if I'm just wiping a part down with MEK, I put it on. I never used gloves in the past in the solvent tank, but over the years I've found that I've become a lot more sensitive to chemicals, with exposure...now I do when I've got gloves...though I still often use simple solvents and fuels without them. I don't often get up on scaffolding or tall stands any more, and the most I use is a ladder.(here)
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I operate regularly in Afghanistan; not merely overflights, but takeoffs and landings...(here)
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On the PB4Y conversions, we could easily lean by exhaust color at night...(here)
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...I've been flying for some time now, with a fairly wide variety of experience as a background. Among that experience is atmospheric research intentionally penetrating thunderstorms and convective weather. I've spent a lot of time at low altitudes in mountainous terrain in severe turbulence, too...(here)
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There are no mach tuck issues with the Avanti... I flew the airplane for a thousand hours and trained others in the airplane.(here)
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...I've worked with the CL215's and 415's... I've worked fire internationally...and am one of the few in the US who has experience in most aerial fire disciplines and duties, including ground fire...(here)
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...The last SEAT (single engine air tanker) I flew was an AT-802. I'm carded in the 802 and 502, and have been flying ag since I was eighteen. I did seven years in Dromaders, too...(here)
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...I flew Pawnees all day long...(here)
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Having been the director of maintenance for a King Air operation using both the 90 and 200 series airplanes, as well as an instructor and line pilot in the same, as well as having operated the PT6 in fractional, agricultural, firefighting, and other operations...(here)
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Several weeks ago I was providing some instruction in a Cessna 421 B...(here)
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Flight into Bagdhad isn't much different than flying into any other place right now...I've been in the vicinity before when traffic had to hold because mortar or rocket attacks had damaged the runway, or incoming fire was being taken at the airfield. (here)
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I'm a practicing A&P/Inspector too, incidentally...(here)
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In any given week, I may fly in ten or fifteen different countries, often several in a day...(here)
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I was once flying my boss in a Cessna 150...(here)
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Over the course of my career to date, I've experienced engine failures, fires, control failures, hydraulic failures, pneumatic failures, a recent explosive depressurization, and a host of other events, including forced landings, in a variety of aircraft ranging from single engine piston airplanes to turbojet multi engine heavy aircraft.(here)
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One airplane I fly, in one type of operation, cleans up at five feet AGL...(here)
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I'm a low time pilot? I guess that's...very possibly true... I've got experience on over 70 different types of aircraft at this point as a pilot and a lot more as a mechanic...(here)
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Having flown large supercharged piston engines professionally, and having worked on the same for a number of years as a mechanic and inspector, as well as having overhauled, installed, rebuilt, and maintained both the propellers and governor assemblies for those engines...(here)
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If my by engineer, you mean certified mechanic, then yes: I hold US certification as a mechanic, with airframe and powerplant ratings. If by engineer you mean flight engineer, I also hold a flight engineer certificate. I hold ATP pilot certification...(here)
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I fly the freighter version.(In a post titled "Boeing 747-400 mean flightdeck noise level")
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Of course I don't use carb heat as part of a routine, normal cruise descent....(here)
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BTW, practice engine failure by shutting down the engine was/is discouraged due to the number of times such practice led to loss of aircraft and life, the events being far too numerous to list.
Shutting down and restarting engines in multi-engine airplanes is still a regular requirement of any inflight training program with which I'm familiar, from primary training to the issuance of type ratings.
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oh dear... i must say i just truly laughed. this old poor man. he is rush with the ignore list thinking that he penalizes somebody with it, but the only thing he reaches is that he cannot anymore read the posts from ignored users.
and i bet- when he would be able to read his own quoted statements in post 173 he would answer something different than the usual babbling from his "check airman" experience he gives in post 176...
and i bet- when he would be able to read his own quoted statements in post 173 he would answer something different than the usual babbling from his "check airman" experience he gives in post 176...
Originally Posted by SNS3Guppy
...Shutting down and restarting engines in multi-engine airplanes is still a regular requirement of any inflight training program with which I'm familiar, from primary training to the issuance of type ratings.
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I just want to send out some congratulations to Guppy.....NASA was running into problems, and they went to him for answers...he's now running the space program...and will be the commander on the next shuttle launch. No one else measured up.
You know...if you want to do something right...you gotta do it yourself.
You know...if you want to do something right...you gotta do it yourself.
Last edited by johns7022; 12th Dec 2010 at 19:32.
Quite a career, Mr. Guppy; any kills in aerial combat? I have done six type ratings in my civil career, NOT one required an engine shutdown in the plane. Same with 3 military planes. Please cite an ATP PTS section requiring an in-flight engine shutdown and start. Also, cite a normal checklist procedure that directs an engine shutdown.
V1...Oops, your research talents display a patience, perseverance and dedication that can be either admired or leave one stunned senseless.
GF
V1...Oops, your research talents display a patience, perseverance and dedication that can be either admired or leave one stunned senseless.
GF
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this old poor man today lost almost all he has in hin sunset years- an anonymous as well on fairy tales built internet forum reputation.
for what guppy? being an aviation fan is not a shame, just be yourself.
why do you call real pilots trolls having by yourself nothing more than theoretical internet knowledge about this stuff ? to now end up as a laughing stock?
for what guppy? being an aviation fan is not a shame, just be yourself.
why do you call real pilots trolls having by yourself nothing more than theoretical internet knowledge about this stuff ? to now end up as a laughing stock?
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If nothing else, the above two posts proves that is is time for this thread to go away. 
"real pilots"? Give me a break.
"real pilots"? Give me a break.
