Concorde question
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Concorde Profitability
Ahhh that question again. Just concentrating then on matters on the UK side of the English Channel. Prior to the Paris crash, BA was making a very healthy profit indeed on it's Concorde operation. There were some blots on the horizon that had to be overcome (Relife 2, SFAR regulation implementation, EGPWS and GPS navigation enhancement etc.) but all these things were 'doable' and under both study and disussion.
After the Paris crash came the horrible events of 9-11; around 40 regular BA Concorde passengers were tragically lost in the twin towers alone. When the aircraft returned to service in November 2001 the loads (and profitablity) were understandably taking a major hit, but as all times in her service life Concorde had the ability to weather the storm and was already bouncing back well. Unfortunately in 2003, due to some totally disgusting goings on, on the French side of the Channel, the aeroplane never got the chance to fully recover and BA services ceased in October of that year. (It is to the eternal shame of certain individuals on THIS side of the Channel that this French Disconnection was never challenged legally).
Concorde was only ever run (that is at least in the UK) for profit, but the hike in oil prices would obviously pushed up ticket prices significantly, and the massive economic downturn of last year would have certainly meant a temporary reduction in services. But in spite of all this, I firmly believe that Concorde would have weathered this storm, and would have been now earning those bucks for BA yet again.
John Hutchinson - The Wind Beneath My Wings
A superbly interesting read, written about arguably the most eloquent of all Concorde pilot speakers. One of lifes true gentlemen and a superb pilot, it is a long overdue biography, well done Hutch.
Best Regards
Dude
.
Ahhh that question again. Just concentrating then on matters on the UK side of the English Channel. Prior to the Paris crash, BA was making a very healthy profit indeed on it's Concorde operation. There were some blots on the horizon that had to be overcome (Relife 2, SFAR regulation implementation, EGPWS and GPS navigation enhancement etc.) but all these things were 'doable' and under both study and disussion.
After the Paris crash came the horrible events of 9-11; around 40 regular BA Concorde passengers were tragically lost in the twin towers alone. When the aircraft returned to service in November 2001 the loads (and profitablity) were understandably taking a major hit, but as all times in her service life Concorde had the ability to weather the storm and was already bouncing back well. Unfortunately in 2003, due to some totally disgusting goings on, on the French side of the Channel, the aeroplane never got the chance to fully recover and BA services ceased in October of that year. (It is to the eternal shame of certain individuals on THIS side of the Channel that this French Disconnection was never challenged legally).
Concorde was only ever run (that is at least in the UK) for profit, but the hike in oil prices would obviously pushed up ticket prices significantly, and the massive economic downturn of last year would have certainly meant a temporary reduction in services. But in spite of all this, I firmly believe that Concorde would have weathered this storm, and would have been now earning those bucks for BA yet again.
John Hutchinson - The Wind Beneath My Wings
A superbly interesting read, written about arguably the most eloquent of all Concorde pilot speakers. One of lifes true gentlemen and a superb pilot, it is a long overdue biography, well done Hutch.
Best Regards
Dude
.
Last edited by M2dude; 29th Jun 2011 at 10:32.
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Concorde's min drag speed... was it 350kts or 400? I've seen both reported. Whichever it is, I understand it equates to approx M0.95 at 29,000 feet hence the subsonic cruise being generally flown at that relatively low altitude.
SSD
SSD
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Just viewing some 'old' in-flight footage...gosh...she was such a beauty...have to say I've never been on any other aircraft which, during taxi, had people stop what they were doing ( servicing aircraft ! ) and just watch her pass by .... anyhow, before I become a sentimental ol' bugger........I noticed that the time between Mach1 being displayed in the cabin, and, in this case Peter Benn announcing that we were indeed Mach1, 40 seconds had passed ! ( Thanks Peter for making that flight so memorable. Your obvious enthusiasm for Concorde made for a very memorable flight - thank you ) - I know Christiaan gave an explanation some time back...but 40 seconds seems a long time ! Any other reasons as to the 'very' early Mach 1 announcement in the cabin ??
Best wishes everyone,
d
Best wishes everyone,
d
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Those darned Marilake things
Speaking as a fellow sentimental ol' bugger, Peter Benn's commentary 'delay' (a truly nice guy by the way) is a simple case of between Mach 0.98 and Mach 1.02 the displays only showed Mach 1.0. So that's where we get our delay from.
Mach 2 was a bigger 'lie'. Anytime you were above Mach 1.98 the displays would only show Mach 2. (I've been to Mach 2.1 on test fliights but the pesky things still only showed us Mach 2).
Best regards
Dude
Mach 2 was a bigger 'lie'. Anytime you were above Mach 1.98 the displays would only show Mach 2. (I've been to Mach 2.1 on test fliights but the pesky things still only showed us Mach 2).
Best regards
Dude
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I've always been fascinated by Concorde, and I've been following this incredible thread for some time now.
For my birthday last month my wife bought me an experience on the Concorde Simulator at Brooklands, which has been mentioned on this thread a couple of times. I had an outstanding time, not only with the simulator itself, but meeting people who were involved with Concorde and keen to share their enthusiasm. I heartily recommend the experience to anyone with an interest in Concorde. And the money goes to improving the simulator, so it's for a good cause!
Joel.
For my birthday last month my wife bought me an experience on the Concorde Simulator at Brooklands, which has been mentioned on this thread a couple of times. I had an outstanding time, not only with the simulator itself, but meeting people who were involved with Concorde and keen to share their enthusiasm. I heartily recommend the experience to anyone with an interest in Concorde. And the money goes to improving the simulator, so it's for a good cause!
Joel.
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71 pages later my personal edification is complete!! All contributors, particularly the 3 venerable concateers (you know who you are!), many thanks for the most captivating of insights.
3..2..1..Now indeed! Bravo I salute you
!!
sAx
PS Having watched the Concorde Story, some consideration of sorts would need to be taken of events in the immediate aftermath of the Gonesse crash. AF from their perspective took the responsible position to ground aircraft, where BA continued flights later that evening following a business as usual approach. This proved quite upsetting on the French side of the Channel, as reasons behind AF4590's crash where unknown at that stage. The Gonesse Mayor being very critical about what appeared to his eyes to be a quite callous BA attitude, placing commercial consideration before public safety.
To rule any two individuals, the age old philosophy is to divide them. By the time recriminations started to fly from the BA side concerning AF maintenance standards, then the joint collaboration had achieved this for themselves. This left little room for manoeuvre for the CAA, who had to be seen to be placing the public interest before any cash as usual continuity. Their stance would need to be unequivocal, showing the public that the 'gamekeeper' would not be making any attempt to be seen in collusion with the 'poacher' and hence removal of the air worthiness certificate. This is not a riposte of any previous post, but just my $0.02c of what may have played a contributory part in the final decision to retire Concorde. Regardless of any attempt to present a united front, the end result may well have been the same. but it would have gone someway to underline public confidence in the responsible attitudes of both AF and BA.
3..2..1..Now indeed! Bravo I salute you
!!sAx
PS Having watched the Concorde Story, some consideration of sorts would need to be taken of events in the immediate aftermath of the Gonesse crash. AF from their perspective took the responsible position to ground aircraft, where BA continued flights later that evening following a business as usual approach. This proved quite upsetting on the French side of the Channel, as reasons behind AF4590's crash where unknown at that stage. The Gonesse Mayor being very critical about what appeared to his eyes to be a quite callous BA attitude, placing commercial consideration before public safety.
To rule any two individuals, the age old philosophy is to divide them. By the time recriminations started to fly from the BA side concerning AF maintenance standards, then the joint collaboration had achieved this for themselves. This left little room for manoeuvre for the CAA, who had to be seen to be placing the public interest before any cash as usual continuity. Their stance would need to be unequivocal, showing the public that the 'gamekeeper' would not be making any attempt to be seen in collusion with the 'poacher' and hence removal of the air worthiness certificate. This is not a riposte of any previous post, but just my $0.02c of what may have played a contributory part in the final decision to retire Concorde. Regardless of any attempt to present a united front, the end result may well have been the same. but it would have gone someway to underline public confidence in the responsible attitudes of both AF and BA.
Last edited by sAx_R54; 17th Jul 2011 at 09:47.
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BA made the right call regarding continuing to fly their Concordes following the crash, and it was a massive mistake by the CAA to ground the British fleet. The whole crash has been one massive cover-up by the French who operated Concorde badly with regard to their maintenance procedures. The crash lies firmly at the door of Air France.
Of course we could go into the list of near crashes by Air France, such as the time when they topped up the hydraulic fluid on Concorde SD with the wrong fluid. The French had problems with their Concordes that the British never suffered, and I am surprised that there were not further crashes with their fleet.
Well done BA for a wonderful nearly 28 years of safe supersonic passenger services!
Of course we could go into the list of near crashes by Air France, such as the time when they topped up the hydraulic fluid on Concorde SD with the wrong fluid. The French had problems with their Concordes that the British never suffered, and I am surprised that there were not further crashes with their fleet.
Well done BA for a wonderful nearly 28 years of safe supersonic passenger services!
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Airframe Internal Metal Colour
or at least undercarriage doors. We had a bunch of guys up here at Manchester from AF at Filton last week. They needed a "Concorde fix". While underneath on of them said "Oh Yes your doors are different colours like ours."
I'd never noticed that the metal on the inside of the main undercarriage doors that are open when she's on the ground are different colours. One is a drab green and the other is khaki.
Is there any reason for this or is it just a new one has been fitted at some time and happens to be different ?
I'd never noticed that the metal on the inside of the main undercarriage doors that are open when she's on the ground are different colours. One is a drab green and the other is khaki.
Is there any reason for this or is it just a new one has been fitted at some time and happens to be different ?
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Dem Kullerz
Glad the Filton AF guys enjoyed their Concorde fix. (There is no other Concorde in the UK, bar none, that able to achieve this fix better than G-BOAC can ). As far as the gear door colours go, well the 'normal' colour is the light brown one that you describe, the green primer colour door is a replacement one. (As to when we did that replacement I really can't remember I'm afraid - Extreme Brain Fatigue 
).
I'll have a closer look at that door when I'm next up in Manchester in 10 days.
Best Regards
Dude
). As far as the gear door colours go, well the 'normal' colour is the light brown one that you describe, the green primer colour door is a replacement one. (As to when we did that replacement I really can't remember I'm afraid - Extreme Brain Fatigue ). I'll have a closer look at that door when I'm next up in Manchester in 10 days.
Best Regards
Dude
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The secondary doors across the whole fleet had lots of issues over time. Like the elevons, rudders and belly panels they were made of a honeycomb lattice structure that eventually dis-bonded causing a lot of overhaul stress in the workshops.
I think it would be fair to say that it would be a freak of nature if any of the aircraft actually had the same doors fitted that they left the factory with!
I think it would be fair to say that it would be a freak of nature if any of the aircraft actually had the same doors fitted that they left the factory with!
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The Concord was scrubbed because when ran as an airline, using typical overweight, RTO type mentality, it's was an accident waiting to happen.
Reminds of the Shuttle...Rutan gets a plane in space...for one billionth the price...so the Shuttle goes away because the people can't keep costs down.
Maybe all this should be put into the private sector where people 'try'.
Reminds of the Shuttle...Rutan gets a plane in space...for one billionth the price...so the Shuttle goes away because the people can't keep costs down.
Maybe all this should be put into the private sector where people 'try'.
Watch out--SSG V 1.0 thru 9.0, the fickle finger is now over here telling us how stupid everyone in aviation is, himself excluded, of course. Apparently, single-pilot Citation drivers (Slow-tation) are thoroughly knowledgeable in Concorde operations.
GF
GF
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gordonroxborough
Speaking as someone who was actually THERE during the entirity of Concorde commercial operations (rather than just an amature outside observer), I can assure you that replacement doors were almost always painted when fitted to the aircraft, and NOT left in the green primer colour. Alpha Charlie was a bit of an exeption in that the door was never painted and THAT is the point being made here. No one is even suggesting a freak of nature for goodness sake, and no matter what you may have read etc, this was regular Concorde engineering practice.
whenrealityhurts
Wow, what total and absolute drivel. For a start it's CONCORDE and not that rather wonderful town in Middlesex County thank you very much. There was NEVER any 'operated using typical overweight RTO mentality' this side of the English' Channel EVER and anyway this had absolutely NOTHING to do with the assasination of the amazing aeroplane.. As far as being 'an accident waiting to happen', well you are obviously at best very poorly informed and at worst you are used to speaking out of an orifice diagonally opposite to your mouth sir.
Galaxy Flyer has made a large number of very valuable contributions to this thread and as an ex C5A pilot and highly experienced aviator deserves infinately more respect than you. As far as any bannings here, well look in the mirror fella, and I suggest that you restrict your postings to something that you maybe have some expertise. (Is there a section here on paper aeroplanes maybe?).
Regards (particularly to you GF) Dude
The secondary doors across the whole fleet had lots of issues over time. Like the elevons, rudders and belly panels they were made of a honeycomb lattice structure that eventually dis-bonded causing a lot of overhaul stress in the workshops.
I think it would be fair to say that it would be a freak of nature if any of the aircraft actually had the same doors fitted that they left the factory with!
I think it would be fair to say that it would be a freak of nature if any of the aircraft actually had the same doors fitted that they left the factory with!
whenrealityhurts
The Concord was scrubbed because when ran as an airline, using typical overweight, RTO type mentality, it's was an accident waiting to happen.
Reminds of the Shuttle...Rutan gets a plane in space...for one billionth the price...so the Shuttle goes away because the people can't keep costs down.
Maybe all this should be put into the private sector where people 'try'.
Reminds of the Shuttle...Rutan gets a plane in space...for one billionth the price...so the Shuttle goes away because the people can't keep costs down.
Maybe all this should be put into the private sector where people 'try'.
Galaxy Flyer has made a large number of very valuable contributions to this thread and as an ex C5A pilot and highly experienced aviator deserves infinately more respect than you. As far as any bannings here, well look in the mirror fella, and I suggest that you restrict your postings to something that you maybe have some expertise. (Is there a section here on paper aeroplanes maybe?).
Regards (particularly to you GF) Dude
Last edited by M2dude; 4th Aug 2011 at 17:40.
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Well said M2dude!
I appreciate your comments greatly, which I am fully aware of are based on nearly 37 years of experience, starting with the construction of the Concorde airframes for BAC at Filton, and following this as an engineer with BA keeping these beautiful birds flying.
You are one of the real heroes and stars of the Concorde world, one of the most respected Concorde engineers in the world, add to this fact that you also basically wrote the book for BA on the air in-take system!
It's a pleasure to read all your truly amazing posts based on such great knowledge gained from your mass of Concorde experience, unlike some posts on here which are based on reading books, and listening to the rubbish that’s out there written by those who lack any experience regarding this great aeroplane
Steve
I appreciate your comments greatly, which I am fully aware of are based on nearly 37 years of experience, starting with the construction of the Concorde airframes for BAC at Filton, and following this as an engineer with BA keeping these beautiful birds flying.
You are one of the real heroes and stars of the Concorde world, one of the most respected Concorde engineers in the world, add to this fact that you also basically wrote the book for BA on the air in-take system!
It's a pleasure to read all your truly amazing posts based on such great knowledge gained from your mass of Concorde experience, unlike some posts on here which are based on reading books, and listening to the rubbish that’s out there written by those who lack any experience regarding this great aeroplane
Steve
Last edited by steve-de-s; 2nd Aug 2011 at 23:14.
Thread Starter
I second that M2Dude and thank you for correcting this m*ron
Interesting how this 'accident waiting to happen' enjoyed a thirty year plus accident free record with BA.
Interesting how this 'accident waiting to happen' enjoyed a thirty year plus accident free record with BA.
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Speaking as someone who was actually THERE during the entirity of Concorde commercial operations (rather than just an amature outside observer), I can assure you that replacement doors were almost always painted when fitted to the aircraft, and NOT left in the green primer colour. Alpha Charlie was a bit of an exeption in that the door was never painted and THAT is the point being made here. No one is even suggesting a freak of nature for goodness sake, and no matter what you may have read etc, this was regular Concorde engineering practice.
The freak of nature was again a point totally missed on you, which is surprising Ricky. So to explain it in simple words, it's highly unlikely that the aircraft in the fleet are today fitted with the said doors they rolled out of the factory with...that was the point, not a about bad engineering practices about painting or anything silly like that.
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Yawn... For goodness sake let's not nit-pick here 
. If you'd been THERE Gordon you would know what I meant. I WAS refering to the inner side of the secondary door as it happens, any aircraft engineer would know that. (It is just slightly obvious that the outer skin would be painted you know).
The point here is that it is far better if you leave ANSWERS to technical and operational issues to pilots and enginers that were involved with Concorde development and operation and actually KNOW what happened in service. It can be infuriating to the extreme when people that had absolutely nothing to do with the Concorde operation, their entire repertoire of knowledge being based on reading all about in any publication that they could get their paws on or listening to any old nonsense being spurted about by goodness knows who, try and post replies to queries here as if they have set themselves up as a self-appointed 'Mr Concorde'. (Personally I'm happy and humble enough to admit that's certainly not me. Concorde was always a non stop learning process for me and I have never stopped learning to this very day).
Joining the cut up bits of 202 back together is not in the same universe I'm afraid, as living with the aeroplane day in and day out, year in, year out, as impressive as that feat may be to you.
Lesson ends.
Regards
Dude
. If you'd been THERE Gordon you would know what I meant. I WAS refering to the inner side of the secondary door as it happens, any aircraft engineer would know that. (It is just slightly obvious that the outer skin would be painted you know). The point here is that it is far better if you leave ANSWERS to technical and operational issues to pilots and enginers that were involved with Concorde development and operation and actually KNOW what happened in service. It can be infuriating to the extreme when people that had absolutely nothing to do with the Concorde operation, their entire repertoire of knowledge being based on reading all about in any publication that they could get their paws on or listening to any old nonsense being spurted about by goodness knows who, try and post replies to queries here as if they have set themselves up as a self-appointed 'Mr Concorde'. (Personally I'm happy and humble enough to admit that's certainly not me. Concorde was always a non stop learning process for me and I have never stopped learning to this very day).
Joining the cut up bits of 202 back together is not in the same universe I'm afraid, as living with the aeroplane day in and day out, year in, year out, as impressive as that feat may be to you.
Lesson ends.
Regards
Dude
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Wonderful 360 VR of.....
360° Virtual Reality tour of the Cockpit of Concorde by Ken McBride
Check out Kens other VR images on his site...
Check out Kens other VR images on his site...
Last edited by speedbirdconcorde; 8th Aug 2011 at 23:20.
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More switches and gubbins!
What a cracking image and again, what a cracking thread which I read and re-read to appreciate the machine and the people who operated and cared for it.
Having watched David, Les and Roger more times than my wife cares to remember and studied Mr Calvert's excellent book I find the image facinating in that to the rear of the Captain there are lots of trip switches (?) and below the Flight Engineers table on each side many items that I havent seen before.
If someone could explain what they are I would be extremely thankful!
Kind regards
Sidders
Having watched David, Les and Roger more times than my wife cares to remember and studied Mr Calvert's excellent book I find the image facinating in that to the rear of the Captain there are lots of trip switches (?) and below the Flight Engineers table on each side many items that I havent seen before.
If someone could explain what they are I would be extremely thankful!
Kind regards
Sidders