Concorde question

[DozyWannabe]

Originally Posted by ChristiaanJ

I'd heard about that 'glitch'... Having seen the amplitude of the VSI 'twitch' on video

Yeah - "Hutch" helpfully points it out on the late '80s BBC Concorde Special (which I recently re-acquired - yay!).

[CliveL]

Also just about visible in that picture is the 'area ruling' of the rear fuselage where the fin starts - the fuselage is noticeably 'waisted' there.

Sorry SSD, but there ain't no waisting on the fuselage, although the area ruling in that area is quite good. Did you mean where the fuselage starts to taper?




Dude - I DID say the pressure was peculiarly sensitive to angle, but I didn't remember those additional corrections. Amazing what memories this thread throws up

[Mr.Vortex]

That's picture is interesting.!!

I was wondering that by making more swept angle like in Concorde, is it gonna
help in area rule? Like cross section area gradually increase.
Also, IIRC the concorde body seems to get narrower as we go to it tail. Does
this design were suppose to help in Area rule?

Best regards

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

CliveL said "Sorry SSD, but there ain't no waisting on the fuselage, although the area ruling in that area is quite good. Did you mean where the fuselage starts to taper?"
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Nope. I meant the waisting of the fuselage where the fin starts. Stand on the steps by the front door where Dude's wife took that picture, and you'll see that the cabin roof is 'waisted in' noticably where the fin is mounted (not the sides of the fuselage which remain parallel - the roof, which is bowed inwards and downwards to reduce the fuselage cross section co-incident with the fin's extension above the fuselage). I see it several times a week on OAC.

You can see it on this picture too, though it's not as obvious as when you look back from the door.



Mr Vortex - Yes, the gradual taper of the nose and of the tail help with area rule. As does the wing leading edge being brought as far forward as possible where it joins the fuselage, so the cross-sectional area increases as gradually as possible, nose to tail, at the wing root.

[Coldbear]

Reverse buckets

Hi,

I've been following this thread with great interest. I hope some of you silver haired Captains (yes, with a capital C) can answer a question that has been bugging my mind for the last few days.

After watching the ITVV Concorde video it is apparant that you check the Reversers and air shut off valve. How do you do this test and what are you looking for?
I've been trying to get it to work in the FLS ConcordeX , but so far without luck. The buckets move accordingly in the air and when selecting reverse. And they say it's simulated as well.

Thanks,

Martin

[M2dude]

Landroger

Oh and something that your photograph put in mind. It must be very seldom that even a parked aircraft is actually quiet. Being under AC like that must have been a bit un-nerving for someone so used to being next to Concorde, because she must be virtually silent?

Actually it was a great and moving experience Roger. All the people at the function were BA 'Concorde family', so the noise we made that evening was certainly sufficient. It sounds weird I know, but it was almost as if OAC was entering the spirit of the occasion. (And the aircraft was open for us to take photos, reminisce and quite honestly to help remind us all that something really wonderful was now missing from our lives). The aircraft is in such good general condition that she never really seems 'dead' at all
howiehowie93

is there something missing dead centre of the picture ?? to the Left of what I presume is a an FCU on the Gearbox? Looks to be a V-Band clamp still there hanging on the pad ??

Nothing missing here Howie. On the RIGHT HAND engines, ie. 2 & 4, Concorde had 2 hydraulic pumps, but on 1 & 3 engines there was only a single pump. What you can see is the spare gearbox provision for the extra YELLOW pump, right next to the IDG. (You can see the pipes coming from the GREEN hydraulic pump in the forward face of the gearbox, immediately forward of the 'blank').

Best regards
Dude

[M2dude]

EXWOK
The OAF 'Mach 1 glitch' was pretty much from day 1, yonks before the nose job. All we were ever able to establish was that it was definately the ALTITUDE comparator tripping the red ADS master warning I established that one during a test flight. (At FL290 you needed around 350' comparison error between ADCs for at least 3 seconds in order to trip the warning). Trouble was the error was gone so quickly you never got very far. (And the AIDS/FDR system on OAF and OAG only took readings from #1ADC, and not both as was the case with the original 5 aircraft, so the FDR was not much help either).

ChristiaanJ

The 'tubes' (there are two, side by side) are the fairings for the ADF (automatic direction finder) aerials. And IIRC, the magnetic compass sensors ('flux-valves') are under there as well.

Not on the production aircraft my friend, there was now just a single raised fairing, offset to the left of the fuselage crown which houses both ADF sense antennas as well as the 2 compass flux valves. The smaller central fairing is the one housing the ADF Loop antennas.

This view from the top of the fin shows it all quite clearly.

Best regards
Dude

[CliveL]

Nope. I meant the waisting of the fuselage where the fin starts. Stand on the steps by the front door where Dude's wife took that picture, and you'll see that the cabin roof is 'waisted in' noticably where the fin is mounted (not the sides of the fuselage which remain parallel - the roof, which is bowed inwards and downwards to reduce the fuselage cross section co-incident with the fin's extension above the fuselage).

OK, I see where you are coming from. There is a change of line at the top of the fuselage, but this doesn't really constitute 'waisting' in my terms. I think of waisting as a local area increase followed by a reduction to fill in a bump in the area distribution. What you are seeing is the change in upper fuselage line where the extended rear fuselage fairs into the prototype fuselage line. This extension was introduced to stretch out the lifting length, but to keep enough ground clearance it had to be upswept, which gave rise to that upper surface kink.



This one really shows it up Alpha Fox after last landing at Filton.

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Cheers

CL

[Discorde]

Ah, the good old days! I submitted the following to 'Private Eye' when the Conc retired:

So, farewell then, Concorde
Supersonic Thunderjet
'Arrive before you leave'
That was your slogan
If only you could depart in 2003
And arrive thirty years earlier
Then you could start
All over again.

E J Thrubshaw (Mach 17½)

If anyone's interested, I've started a thread entitled 'LHR nostalgia' on the 'Aviation History and Nostalgia' forum.

[johnjosh43]

Concorde Flights - which a/c did which ?

Thanks to all who have contributed to this wondrous thread. As one of the guides who work on Alpha Charlie at Manchester (with that Shaggy Sheep pperson), I have set myself a little task. We regularly get people who have travelled on Concorde on our tours who just want to refresh their memories but don't know which aircraft it was.
My "little" task is to document which a/c did which flight ? There were somewhere about 50,000 flights for the BA Concordes. I'm currently up to 14,353 thanks to Stephen at Home.
Does anyone have a source of other none Heathrow data ?
I've used an assumption that BA003 followed BA002 to bulk some of the data up.
The BA museum can't help.
PS If anyone wants a copy of the data so far it's in a spreadsheet format at the moment and I'll happily pass it on. Just ping me a message rather than post here.

[Feathers McGraw]

Discorde

Wonderful stuff, and of course now E J Thribb himself has departed from the Eye for a retirement in France.

Did they ever print it, or acknowledge your suggestion?

[Mr.Vortex]

Thanks for your reply Shaggy Sheep Driver,

I had read about the Compressor lift that cause by the intake shockwave on
XB-70. It help to improve the movement of CP and I think maybe L/D ratio.
I'm know that Concorde has this kind of behavior too (engine shutdown during M2.0) but did they intend to use the compressor lift method in Concorde?

Thanks for all reply.

Best regards

[Adverse Jaw]

Reading this fascinating thread, I hesitate to add my worms eye view.
In 1969, as a young chap freshly out of school, I was given a temporary job at Filton in the printing shop attached to the Brabazon hangar where the Concorde prototype was being assembled. Things were badly in arrears, so we were on compulsory and lucrative, overtime, working from 7am to 9pm. We had a small workshop containing about a dozen old duplicating machines for drawings and documentation. The foreman was also shop steward and I soon learned that he was in charge, when, after clocking in, I began preparing my machine with paper and ink. He informed me that nothing was to be done until he activated all the machines with his big mains power supply lever, and that was not done until we’d brewed up a leisurely cup of tea. In fact, the tea breaks were often and long, there was absolutely no sign of the urgency that prevailed in the rest of the factory.
Draughtsmen and engineers would leave their work in a hatch with a request for so many copies – sometimes with a note saying URGENT. This would invoke a snarling ‘cheeky bugger’ reaction as the unfortunate man's work was then shoved to the bottom of the pile. This treatment would eventually provoke a protesting manager to come through the door, which separated us from the Design Office. At this, down would go the power lever to the cry of ‘I smell management!’ More tea and lengthy negotiations before work limped on.
The job was of course boring, the printing machines had a variable speed control habitually set of course on the lowest stop, but I found the tedium could be eased by tweaking the many adjustable controls on the paper feed and cranking up the speed until the inevitable inky jam.
The result of my happy experimentation was that at the end of the day, I would have a pile of completed work about 3 feet high while my colleagues would have only about 3 inches. This led to an interview with my foreman in which he pointed out that while I was just a student mucking about, they all had families to support and I was in danger of causing the suspension of overtime. Furthermore, failure to see their point of view would lead to another meeting behind the bike sheds after work.
I am filled with wonder that Concorde was completed at all knowing that the massive dedication of so many was constantly undermined – indeed sabotaged by the bloody-minded working practices of those dinosaurs – now replaced by the print button on every computer.
Sorry, long post.

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Hello

I got questions about Concorde, perhaps it's a bit tricky but anyway, let's try...

An acquaintance of mine, former french military (Navy) told me about a rumor concerning the french Concorde :
"At the time of IOC or FOC of the ASMP missile (*), cabling work would have been made on one or several Air France Concorde... just in case."

- Does anyone heard it, and/or can confirm/deny it ?
- What about the other side of the Channel ? Did UK evaluate (or more) a military potential for BA's Concorde (bomber, reconnaissance platform...) ?

I am a little skeptical, because at the time mentioned (**), the high altitude strategic bomber was a bit out of fashion (the low altitude mission profile for the Mirage IVAs was introduced in 1966), and I cannot imagine a low altitude Concorde deemed efficient in any way.
And I'm glad that the Lady eventually retained her purely pacific role.

Thanks in advance,
AZR.

(*) the ASMP is the french nuclear air-to-ground missile.
(**) ASMP's date of commissioning is 1986.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I have seen an artist's impression from the '60s of a Concorde in RAF colours. As you say, by the time Concorde became available the high altitude bomber role had gone due to improvements in anti-aircraft missile performance.

Concorde would have been horredously inefficient at low level with a very short range, it isn't big enough to use as a military transport, so it's difficult to envisage a military role for it.

[ChristiaanJ]

AZR,
Nice one... never heard that one before.
I think it's another urban legend...

Here's the "artist impression" that may have started the legend...



Also, there was a James Bond film, where they'd hung a couple of cruise missiles under a Concorde, which did look a bit like ASMPs.

CJ

[Brian Abraham]

was constantly undermined – indeed sabotaged by the bloody-minded working practices of those dinosaurs

Great story Adverse Jaw, and there are threads on here pondering why the demise of British aircraft manufacturing.

they all had families to support and I was in danger of causing the suspension of overtime

Law of unintended consequences?

[dmussen]

Happy Days

I worked on the project for eighteen months in production design control at Brooklands. We were to facilitate certification by the CAA and BEA (Fr).
We built the enlarged tail cone tank and the "droop Snoop" and fwd. fuselage.
I recall that one of the biggest design problems was the toilet up the front.
There simply wasn't the space.
Sir George Edwards fired most of us prior to to the first revenue flight of G-BOAC out of Heathrow.
I got a job at BP in Meadhurst and enjoyed listening and watching this beautiful aircraft get airbourne for New York from the roof of the research establishment that day.
I only played a small part but by God it was fun.
I am looking at my office wall in Fremantle, Western Australia at a photograph of G-BOAC after getting airbourne on its maiden flight. It is signed by my work golleges at Brooklands.
Somewhere in a trunk I have a copy (blueprint) of prototype 01 notated in both English and French. (I cannot recall how I came by it).
This is the best thread I have read ever. What a machine !!
The spin parachute and emergency escape hatch are interesting

[CliveL]

Mixture of comments:

AZR - The MOD did ask us to look at a military application, but it didn't take long to show that it just wasn't on, and it soon got dropped

AJ - The print room below #4 DO - you have just explained a lot! Pain in the neck if you needed a drawing urgently

DM - The prototypes had brake parachutes and escape hatches, but I don't remember ever having to even think about spinning!

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CSL

[Adverse Jaw]

CliveL

I'm so sorry for the undoubted grief caused by the printers and I was on your side - honest. The foreman would kick me out of the shop and tell me not to return for a couple of hours. So, I would stroll happily around the prototype in my white coat (printing was a messy business in those days) without any challenge and ID cards had not yet arrived either. All this while I imagine you were fuming away awaiting your copies.

Regds.

AJ