Concorde question
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I was Googling to see if I could find some info on how the CG indicator on Concorde functioned and found the following two links. The first one is an AAIB report from 2003 regarding a minor fire aboard G-BOAC whilst in transatlantic cruise which resulted in misreadings and failure flags on fuel guages. The second one is from the PPrune archives also dated 2003.
The last two comments at the bottom of that old PPrune thread are interesting since as evidenced by this ongoing thread (as well as the others running in the tech forum), seven years later, many many people are still fascinated by this gorgeous aircraft.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_029047.pdf
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-109948.html
The last two comments at the bottom of that old PPrune thread are interesting since as evidenced by this ongoing thread (as well as the others running in the tech forum), seven years later, many many people are still fascinated by this gorgeous aircraft.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_029047.pdf
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-109948.html
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Originally Posted by M2dude
Oh, and back to the ground stability issue, was Concorde ever sat on its tail by accident? Oh yes, just once to my knowledge.
In May 1977, aircraft G-BOAA was returned to Filton for some modifications that .....
In May 1977, aircraft G-BOAA was returned to Filton for some modifications that .....
In "Concorde - The Inside Story" by Brian Trubshaw there is actually a photo of what is almost certainly the same incident.
But there is another story....
After the first-ever landing at Bahrain, a crowd of Very Important Persons was allowed to visit the aircraft.
Of course they had to see it all, including the rear cabin.
Since the aircraft hadn't been refuelled yet, the inevitable happened... the aircraft started slowly but inexorably tilting backwards.
A very undignified stampede towards the front resulted, just in time, so the aircraft did not actually sit on its tail.
But there was a sequel. The incident had been watched by the airport manager, who promptly decreed that from then on a tractor would have to be chained to the nose gear whenever the aircraft was on the ramp.
Urban legend has it, that from then on there was a new item in the pre-taxy checklist for Bahrain.
CHAIN REMOVED FROM NOSEWHEEL - CHECK
CJ
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Galley Service.
Hello again all,
M2dude is quite right about the galleys being small. The crew on jets these days have far more space than we ever had, and the only galley smaller than Concorde in my opinion was that on the BAC1-ll.
As far as the service was concerned, there were actually three galleys involved. One at the front, (devilishly hot!!) one in the midships which was 'constructed' by means of fixing a table top between the bulkheads after the seat belt sign had been switched off, and of course, there was the rear galley. This could also prove to be a very hot place, especially on AF which we used to call the 'greenhouse' effect. (It was also the noisiest crew positions for the two at the back, especially on take-off, as you can imagine.)
The mid galley would be used simply as a replenishing station....a designated crew member would set it up at the begining of service with extra ice, water, glasses, lemon, wine, champagne etc., so the crew on the trolleys wouldn't have to waste precious time by going back to the galleys for these items during the meal service.
The crew member who took the forward galley position would be barricaded in by means of another table top at the begining of service, and stay there until the meal service was completed. They would have the responsibility of making up drinks orders, cooking the meals, (including F/D, cc meals and any pre-ordered special meals.) The galley person at the rear would be doing the same, but without having to be barricaded in as there was enough galley space there to work un-hindered. Unlike today, there would be no chance of the CSD or rear purser overseeing the service...they were on the trolleys!
That takes care of two crew members. The other four would be two at the front and two at the back, each having a side of the aircraft to look after. They would have memorised the names of each of thier pax, on a full flight that would be twenty-five each. (Not difficult as most of them would be familiar faces in one way or another!)(If not royalty, celebities , mps then regulars.) Because there were more pax in the rear cabin, the two crew in the forward cabin would take the first two rows in the rear cabin. (There was no row 13.)
We did have meals put on for us, but generally not the same as the pax. The F/D would have three different meals in case of food poisoning. (I have never known a case of F/D food poisoning in over 35 years of flying, but I do know it has happened.) We didn't have much time to eat, but we did throw a mouthful down, generally standing up in the galley! (How can you tell a cc member at a party? they are the ones wiping thier hands on the curtains.)
Pax meals were amazing: caviare boats, pate du fois gras, quails eggs were amongst favourite canapes; lobster curry another favourite main, a delicious pudding tray (served on a half tray after the mains tray had been cleared) and a selection of English cheeses served from the trolley, served with celery and fruit accompanied by claret and port. (The wines were exceptional - such as Krug, Chateu Talbot and Meursault.) The trays always looked exquisite with a pink carnation and a white box sporting the speedird livery containing two Thornton's chocolates.
By the time all this had been cleared in, imigration forms handed out and coats delivered back to their owners, it was seat-belts time again! Level flight was a rarity as we were climbing until half-way accross the pond and then on our way down, so the trolleys were hardly ever level.
It has been lovely remembering all these little details again. Every crew member knew their roles inside out, which created reassuringly calm atmosphere from the passengers point of view. If the system was followed to the letter, we always had time for a cup of tea before checking belts and securing the cabin!
I feel honoured to be regailing you all with these snippets of life on the Concorde fleet, especially as this thread is really concerned with the mechanics of the lady. There arn't too many crew left flying now, (it's just that I started when I was two!!!) I will try and persuade others, (retired), to help me jog my memory.
Kind regards.
Landlady.
M2dude is quite right about the galleys being small. The crew on jets these days have far more space than we ever had, and the only galley smaller than Concorde in my opinion was that on the BAC1-ll.
As far as the service was concerned, there were actually three galleys involved. One at the front, (devilishly hot!!) one in the midships which was 'constructed' by means of fixing a table top between the bulkheads after the seat belt sign had been switched off, and of course, there was the rear galley. This could also prove to be a very hot place, especially on AF which we used to call the 'greenhouse' effect. (It was also the noisiest crew positions for the two at the back, especially on take-off, as you can imagine.)
The mid galley would be used simply as a replenishing station....a designated crew member would set it up at the begining of service with extra ice, water, glasses, lemon, wine, champagne etc., so the crew on the trolleys wouldn't have to waste precious time by going back to the galleys for these items during the meal service.
The crew member who took the forward galley position would be barricaded in by means of another table top at the begining of service, and stay there until the meal service was completed. They would have the responsibility of making up drinks orders, cooking the meals, (including F/D, cc meals and any pre-ordered special meals.) The galley person at the rear would be doing the same, but without having to be barricaded in as there was enough galley space there to work un-hindered. Unlike today, there would be no chance of the CSD or rear purser overseeing the service...they were on the trolleys!
That takes care of two crew members. The other four would be two at the front and two at the back, each having a side of the aircraft to look after. They would have memorised the names of each of thier pax, on a full flight that would be twenty-five each. (Not difficult as most of them would be familiar faces in one way or another!)(If not royalty, celebities , mps then regulars.) Because there were more pax in the rear cabin, the two crew in the forward cabin would take the first two rows in the rear cabin. (There was no row 13.)
We did have meals put on for us, but generally not the same as the pax. The F/D would have three different meals in case of food poisoning. (I have never known a case of F/D food poisoning in over 35 years of flying, but I do know it has happened.) We didn't have much time to eat, but we did throw a mouthful down, generally standing up in the galley! (How can you tell a cc member at a party? they are the ones wiping thier hands on the curtains.)
Pax meals were amazing: caviare boats, pate du fois gras, quails eggs were amongst favourite canapes; lobster curry another favourite main, a delicious pudding tray (served on a half tray after the mains tray had been cleared) and a selection of English cheeses served from the trolley, served with celery and fruit accompanied by claret and port. (The wines were exceptional - such as Krug, Chateu Talbot and Meursault.) The trays always looked exquisite with a pink carnation and a white box sporting the speedird livery containing two Thornton's chocolates.
By the time all this had been cleared in, imigration forms handed out and coats delivered back to their owners, it was seat-belts time again! Level flight was a rarity as we were climbing until half-way accross the pond and then on our way down, so the trolleys were hardly ever level.
It has been lovely remembering all these little details again. Every crew member knew their roles inside out, which created reassuringly calm atmosphere from the passengers point of view. If the system was followed to the letter, we always had time for a cup of tea before checking belts and securing the cabin!
I feel honoured to be regailing you all with these snippets of life on the Concorde fleet, especially as this thread is really concerned with the mechanics of the lady. There arn't too many crew left flying now, (it's just that I started when I was two!!!) I will try and persuade others, (retired), to help me jog my memory.
Kind regards.
Landlady.
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landlady,
Don't forget it was you and your colleagues that made the Concorde experience so special just as much as the three guys in the front office, or the ground staff, or the engineers, or us wavers of slide rules.
So yes, the experience from your side is as much part of the "Concorde Story" as ours !
Your description of a typical regular flight is much as I imagined it.
Did you ever do any of the BA 'round-the-Bay' charters?
My only flight was one of the last Air France 'round-the-Bay' flights.
Total duration from take-off to touchdown was only about 1h 50min, yet even so the CC managed to serve us all the classic glass of champagne, a three-course meal that we barely had time to finish, and of course the little box with two choccies... Fauchon in our case.
And all this notwithstanding the steady flow of pax down the aisle, first to have their photo taken next to the Mach meter at M 2.03, and then again for the cockpit visits.
How they managed it I will never know....
CJ
Don't forget it was you and your colleagues that made the Concorde experience so special just as much as the three guys in the front office, or the ground staff, or the engineers, or us wavers of slide rules.
So yes, the experience from your side is as much part of the "Concorde Story" as ours !
Your description of a typical regular flight is much as I imagined it.
Did you ever do any of the BA 'round-the-Bay' charters?
My only flight was one of the last Air France 'round-the-Bay' flights.
Total duration from take-off to touchdown was only about 1h 50min, yet even so the CC managed to serve us all the classic glass of champagne, a three-course meal that we barely had time to finish, and of course the little box with two choccies... Fauchon in our case.
And all this notwithstanding the steady flow of pax down the aisle, first to have their photo taken next to the Mach meter at M 2.03, and then again for the cockpit visits.
How they managed it I will never know....
CJ
Landlady
Did Concorde F/As fly it exclusively at BA or did you fly it on and off? Excuse me, I am not familiar with BA contract rules.
GF
Did Concorde F/As fly it exclusively at BA or did you fly it on and off? Excuse me, I am not familiar with BA contract rules.
GF
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ChristiaanJ
Yes, we all did our fair share of 'round the bays' which were, as you say, about 90 mins in duration and manic! It was a matter of pushing each pax into the F/D and hanging on to the bottom of thier jackets to be be able to pull them out again a minute later! Such a shame that flight deck visits are no longer allowed. It was a fabulous perk to be able to offer the pax a glimpse.
The nicest 'round the bays' were on mother's day, when along with all the mothers and grandmothers on board who had been treated to a 'flight of fantasy' by their families, those among the crew who were mothers got a special day too! (We were able to do the flight and then go back to our own celebrations at home!) (Of course, it worked for the chaps on father's day, too!)
Galaxy Flyer
We were licenced to fly three aircraft, all short-haul, as Concorde was designated a short-haul aircraft. (Although not in her early days of BOAC.) We were all specially selected to fly Concorde and had to pass the training course 100%. We were all, (250 of us), flying on Concorde, B757s and B737s. If we did an airport stand-by, they would generally keep us for the Concorde trips as there were more than enough crew to cover the other aircraft types.
We worked a six day on, three day off pattern, and usually there was the late JFK on your first and second days, any other short haul trip/nightstop on your third and fourth days, then maybe the early JFK on your last two days. However, there were special charters, (I did one round-the-world), Washington-Miami trips year-round and BGI in the winter. (Lovely to spend a week there in January!)
Those were the days!
Yes, we all did our fair share of 'round the bays' which were, as you say, about 90 mins in duration and manic! It was a matter of pushing each pax into the F/D and hanging on to the bottom of thier jackets to be be able to pull them out again a minute later! Such a shame that flight deck visits are no longer allowed. It was a fabulous perk to be able to offer the pax a glimpse.
The nicest 'round the bays' were on mother's day, when along with all the mothers and grandmothers on board who had been treated to a 'flight of fantasy' by their families, those among the crew who were mothers got a special day too! (We were able to do the flight and then go back to our own celebrations at home!) (Of course, it worked for the chaps on father's day, too!)
Galaxy Flyer
We were licenced to fly three aircraft, all short-haul, as Concorde was designated a short-haul aircraft. (Although not in her early days of BOAC.) We were all specially selected to fly Concorde and had to pass the training course 100%. We were all, (250 of us), flying on Concorde, B757s and B737s. If we did an airport stand-by, they would generally keep us for the Concorde trips as there were more than enough crew to cover the other aircraft types.
We worked a six day on, three day off pattern, and usually there was the late JFK on your first and second days, any other short haul trip/nightstop on your third and fourth days, then maybe the early JFK on your last two days. However, there were special charters, (I did one round-the-world), Washington-Miami trips year-round and BGI in the winter. (Lovely to spend a week there in January!)
Those were the days!
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Hi again
I remember that around 1980 one Concorde was painted on one side in the Singapore livery. Obviously the flight to Singapore would need at least one fuel stop. What I have always wondered is which part of the route was flown supersonic? Was she granted any overland supersonic rights? Also was it feasible to have a short supersonic section followed by a subsonic bit and then back to supersonic? I guess that having to use reheat to accelerate twice to mach 2 would use too much fuel.
Thanks Landlady for your posts on Concorde. As SLF I never flew on her but thanks to you I now have an idea of what a wonderful experience it would have been.
Regards
Nick
I remember that around 1980 one Concorde was painted on one side in the Singapore livery. Obviously the flight to Singapore would need at least one fuel stop. What I have always wondered is which part of the route was flown supersonic? Was she granted any overland supersonic rights? Also was it feasible to have a short supersonic section followed by a subsonic bit and then back to supersonic? I guess that having to use reheat to accelerate twice to mach 2 would use too much fuel.
Thanks Landlady for your posts on Concorde. As SLF I never flew on her but thanks to you I now have an idea of what a wonderful experience it would have been.
Regards
Nick
Thread Starter
Thank you M2Dude.
All I did was ask a simple question, but I'm glad I did
In return you and your colleagues have provided us with an Aviation literary delight.
It has been like reading a great book
All I did was ask a simple question, but I'm glad I did
In return you and your colleagues have provided us with an Aviation literary delight.
It has been like reading a great book
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Blue concorde
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, so my not-so-trivial questions, aimed more for F/E and Ground Engineers are:
1) with the same quantity on tanks 6 and 8, for example, 10 tons, there would be a roll tendency? I suspect yes, but not sure.
2) Using valves 6/7 and 5/8 would make lateral unbalance gone or they just leveled the fuel height on each pair of tanks? (Assuming that all these 4 tanks had the same height, what sounds logical to me)
3) Is there any table with these tanks quantities to reach lateral balance or the F/E did fine tune just by making elevons level?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In answer to your questions , unlike the chart for C of G purposes there was no such chart for lateral trim rreasons. We would just transfer fuel across the ship so as to keep the elevons level at between 0 and 1 degree down. However when transfering fuel across the ship as the paired tanks are fore and aft of the C of G then when getting lateral trim you also affect the
C of G.
It is along time ago now and I cannot recall actual figures but your suggestion of between 500 and 700 kgs is I think a good ball park figure
The interconnect valves were never used under normal circumstances, but give it a go it might just over come your problem.
Nick Thomas
---------------------------------------------------------------------
remember that around 1980 one Concorde was painted on one side in the Singapore livery. Obviously the flight to Singapore would need at least one fuel stop. What I have always wondered is which part of the route was flown supersonic? Was she granted any overland supersonic rights? Also was it feasible to have a short supersonic section followed by a subsonic bit and then back to supersonic? I guess that having to use reheat to accelerate
twice to mach 2 would use too much fuel.
It was actually G-BOAD that was 1/2 painted in Singapore Airlines colours in the last part of !977
For more info on this subject check out this web site
CONCORDE SST : Singapore Concorde Services
The original route LHR- Bahrain flew subsonic across Europe and then accelerated to supersonic just off the coast in the north of the Adriatric. It was Supersonic then all the way to Bahrain avoiding islands in the Med but crossing the coast of the Lebenon still at supersonic speeds. This sector even with the long subsonic period [0.95 Mach] still cut the journey time LHR to BAH by 2.5 hours. For the crews the return trip to LHR was more exciting as once the throttles were opened to full power their position never changed until TOD. Once airbourne ---- reheat off at----------------- 500 ft
climb rating[switches] at----1000ft
climb/accel at 0.95r/heats back on and
away you go
The Bahrain - Singapore sector were my favourite though with only a short delay after Take Off before being cleared supersonic and because of the cold air temps at 50000ft plus the old girl would go up to 60,000ft and cruise there at Mach 2.0 and we would roar just south of Sri Lanka north of Indonesia and down the Malacca Straits slowing down and trying to avoid all the thunder heads
Although nothing actually to stop accelerating twice in a sector the fuel use on a long trip would usually not make this viable
NOTE How do you get the posh blue quote inserts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, so my not-so-trivial questions, aimed more for F/E and Ground Engineers are:
1) with the same quantity on tanks 6 and 8, for example, 10 tons, there would be a roll tendency? I suspect yes, but not sure.
2) Using valves 6/7 and 5/8 would make lateral unbalance gone or they just leveled the fuel height on each pair of tanks? (Assuming that all these 4 tanks had the same height, what sounds logical to me)
3) Is there any table with these tanks quantities to reach lateral balance or the F/E did fine tune just by making elevons level?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In answer to your questions , unlike the chart for C of G purposes there was no such chart for lateral trim rreasons. We would just transfer fuel across the ship so as to keep the elevons level at between 0 and 1 degree down. However when transfering fuel across the ship as the paired tanks are fore and aft of the C of G then when getting lateral trim you also affect the
C of G.
It is along time ago now and I cannot recall actual figures but your suggestion of between 500 and 700 kgs is I think a good ball park figure
The interconnect valves were never used under normal circumstances, but give it a go it might just over come your problem.
Nick Thomas
---------------------------------------------------------------------
remember that around 1980 one Concorde was painted on one side in the Singapore livery. Obviously the flight to Singapore would need at least one fuel stop. What I have always wondered is which part of the route was flown supersonic? Was she granted any overland supersonic rights? Also was it feasible to have a short supersonic section followed by a subsonic bit and then back to supersonic? I guess that having to use reheat to accelerate
twice to mach 2 would use too much fuel.
It was actually G-BOAD that was 1/2 painted in Singapore Airlines colours in the last part of !977
For more info on this subject check out this web site
CONCORDE SST : Singapore Concorde Services
The original route LHR- Bahrain flew subsonic across Europe and then accelerated to supersonic just off the coast in the north of the Adriatric. It was Supersonic then all the way to Bahrain avoiding islands in the Med but crossing the coast of the Lebenon still at supersonic speeds. This sector even with the long subsonic period [0.95 Mach] still cut the journey time LHR to BAH by 2.5 hours. For the crews the return trip to LHR was more exciting as once the throttles were opened to full power their position never changed until TOD. Once airbourne ---- reheat off at----------------- 500 ft
climb rating[switches] at----1000ft
climb/accel at 0.95r/heats back on and
away you go
The Bahrain - Singapore sector were my favourite though with only a short delay after Take Off before being cleared supersonic and because of the cold air temps at 50000ft plus the old girl would go up to 60,000ft and cruise there at Mach 2.0 and we would roar just south of Sri Lanka north of Indonesia and down the Malacca Straits slowing down and trying to avoid all the thunder heads
Although nothing actually to stop accelerating twice in a sector the fuel use on a long trip would usually not make this viable
NOTE How do you get the posh blue quote inserts
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I've read every word of this absolutely fascinating thread and like many others, I must offer my thanks to all those posters who've made this the best thread I've ever found on pprune.
I have but one cherised memory of Concorde.
In 1980 I was working on a merchant ship as a radio officer and was lucky enough to see and hearConcorde take off from Singapore.
I still remember that noise - goose bumps stuff!
Thanks again from a humble student pilot.
Rob.
I have but one cherised memory of Concorde.
In 1980 I was working on a merchant ship as a radio officer and was lucky enough to see and hearConcorde take off from Singapore.
I still remember that noise - goose bumps stuff!
Thanks again from a humble student pilot.
Rob.
Think this thread might continue for some time!
Just a quick question..when Concorde was grounded for the tank liners to be fitted, what happened to the flight crews? Were they moved onto another fleet, or just take extended leave?
Thanks in advance...
Just a quick question..when Concorde was grounded for the tank liners to be fitted, what happened to the flight crews? Were they moved onto another fleet, or just take extended leave?
Thanks in advance...
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Extended leave doesn't happen so much in this very commercial world.......
To start with we stayed current in the sim. After a month or so it was obvious that this was a long term event and the company would find something for us to do in return for our salary.
A minor complication was that we knew we were going to need fewer pilots as the decision had already been made to reduce the charter programme, so we weren't all coming back. There were no other FE positions in BA so that was a further issue.
At least one Captain retired during the grounding, which was a sad way to finish. Others who had been on the fleet for less than 5 years went back to their previous fleet (old rating only needing revalidation). Others had the opportunity to bid for positions elsewhere in the normal annual conversion process; some used the tactical skills required to fly Concorde to great effect, and evaded capture for a long time....
For SFOs one was allowed to bid in the normal process or be directed to another fleet. The rules didn't allow direction to the Left Seat, so most bid off to various command positions - the most senior (who would have the seniority to return) and the most junior (who were pretty much doomed to leave the fleet as it shrank). Those in the middle (2 of us!)stuck it out and were directed to the RHS of other fleets, but at least with the knowledge that if the bird flew again we were guaranteed to get back (Quite a gamble at this stage).
I'm ashamed to say I can't remember where all the SFEs went, but they were spread in a diaspora through various departments.
Most unfortunate of all crews were those on the very last Concorde conversion course (No. 30, I think) who finished after the grounding and never got to fly the thing. All that work..................
To start with we stayed current in the sim. After a month or so it was obvious that this was a long term event and the company would find something for us to do in return for our salary.
A minor complication was that we knew we were going to need fewer pilots as the decision had already been made to reduce the charter programme, so we weren't all coming back. There were no other FE positions in BA so that was a further issue.
At least one Captain retired during the grounding, which was a sad way to finish. Others who had been on the fleet for less than 5 years went back to their previous fleet (old rating only needing revalidation). Others had the opportunity to bid for positions elsewhere in the normal annual conversion process; some used the tactical skills required to fly Concorde to great effect, and evaded capture for a long time....
For SFOs one was allowed to bid in the normal process or be directed to another fleet. The rules didn't allow direction to the Left Seat, so most bid off to various command positions - the most senior (who would have the seniority to return) and the most junior (who were pretty much doomed to leave the fleet as it shrank). Those in the middle (2 of us!)stuck it out and were directed to the RHS of other fleets, but at least with the knowledge that if the bird flew again we were guaranteed to get back (Quite a gamble at this stage).
I'm ashamed to say I can't remember where all the SFEs went, but they were spread in a diaspora through various departments.
Most unfortunate of all crews were those on the very last Concorde conversion course (No. 30, I think) who finished after the grounding and never got to fly the thing. All that work..................
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YOU are the best!
YOU have been and will ALWAYS remain the history, a mile stone in the aviation world!
Thank you, mercí, danke, grazie, gracias for sharing with us your experiences on this beauty! I have never read a more interersting thread since when i read pprune!
I wish it would be possible to live again those days, in which aviation was a REAL special issue sorrounded by magic!
Without being too much nostalgic again i want to deeply thank all of you sharing with us the magic of the supersonic lady!
Just one qst. Thanks to her extremely high speed Concorde was able to fly to JFK from LHR in just 3hrs and 30mins. Usually this is a normal flight from LIRF to UUDD where the flight crew, offcourse, flies as well the way back. The flight crew of concorde used to fly from LHR to JFK and then back as well or they were finishing their duty period in JFK and another crew was taking over them?
Thanks again guys!
Thank you, mercí, danke, grazie, gracias for sharing with us your experiences on this beauty! I have never read a more interersting thread since when i read pprune!
I wish it would be possible to live again those days, in which aviation was a REAL special issue sorrounded by magic!
Without being too much nostalgic again i want to deeply thank all of you sharing with us the magic of the supersonic lady!
Just one qst. Thanks to her extremely high speed Concorde was able to fly to JFK from LHR in just 3hrs and 30mins. Usually this is a normal flight from LIRF to UUDD where the flight crew, offcourse, flies as well the way back. The flight crew of concorde used to fly from LHR to JFK and then back as well or they were finishing their duty period in JFK and another crew was taking over them?
Thanks again guys!
Brit312
You mentioned the T-storms in the Straits of Malacca, at FL 600, you still could not top them? How was deviating around at M 2.0? Any problems with turbulence at those levels?
GF
You mentioned the T-storms in the Straits of Malacca, at FL 600, you still could not top them? How was deviating around at M 2.0? Any problems with turbulence at those levels?
GF
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Blue concorde
In answer to your questions , unlike the chart for C of G purposes there was no such chart for lateral trim rreasons. We would just transfer fuel across the ship so as to keep the elevons level at between 0 and 1 degree down. However when transfering fuel across the ship as the paired tanks are fore and aft of the C of G then when getting lateral trim you also affect the
C of G.
It is along time ago now and I cannot recall actual figures but your suggestion of between 500 and 700 kgs is I think a good ball park figure
The interconnect valves were never used under normal circumstances, but give it a go it might just over come your problem.
Nick Thomas
In answer to your questions , unlike the chart for C of G purposes there was no such chart for lateral trim rreasons. We would just transfer fuel across the ship so as to keep the elevons level at between 0 and 1 degree down. However when transfering fuel across the ship as the paired tanks are fore and aft of the C of G then when getting lateral trim you also affect the
C of G.
It is along time ago now and I cannot recall actual figures but your suggestion of between 500 and 700 kgs is I think a good ball park figure
The interconnect valves were never used under normal circumstances, but give it a go it might just over come your problem.
Nick Thomas
Although nothing actually to stop accelerating twice in a sector the fuel use on a long trip would usually not make this viable
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Ladyland, very nice! felt myself being served while reading.
How was this around-the-world trip? Did the crew have time to enjoy the so different locations visited?
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Galaxy flyer
Absolutely correct the T-heads often went up past us at 60000ft, which is quite scarey when you think of the energy required to do that. Makes you as part of mankind seem somewhat insignificant.
Avoiding them as another problemas the Malacca Straits is quite narrow, well it is for Concorde trying hard not to boom the land on either side, but as I remember it there were two good points
The T-storms seemed to be normally over the land either side, but more important we would start to slow down shortly after entering the Malacca Straits and once subsonic we were in the same ball park as other aircraft , avoid them at all cost, and we could then fly over land without upsetting people
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bio161
No the crews flew just the one trans Atlantic sector and then got off for a rest. Well you could not have us boys working too hard now .
In fact it was just possible for the crews to do a return trip and indeed when there were crew problems this was indeed done.
Morning flight
The Concorde report time was 1.5 before departure and a turn around at JFK would have been about 1.5 hours so when all added up it could have just been done. However any delay to either service could result in the home bound flight being late or indeed cancelled due to flight time limitations. This the company deemed to be unacceptable risk on an aircraft which was sold as saving time.
In fact as the morning flight was on approach to JFK,the morning flight back to LHR was already taking off. For the crew to now wait for the late departure back to London would put them way over FTLimitations
That did not mean the crews only did one sector a day
LHR-IAD-MIA was a days work as was the return.
On some of the charter flights it was often a multi sector day such as
Sydney--Brisbane --Guam --Beijing
I was only doing the PR on that trip so I have not got the times but it did seem a long day's work
Absolutely correct the T-heads often went up past us at 60000ft, which is quite scarey when you think of the energy required to do that. Makes you as part of mankind seem somewhat insignificant.
Avoiding them as another problemas the Malacca Straits is quite narrow, well it is for Concorde trying hard not to boom the land on either side, but as I remember it there were two good points
The T-storms seemed to be normally over the land either side, but more important we would start to slow down shortly after entering the Malacca Straits and once subsonic we were in the same ball park as other aircraft , avoid them at all cost, and we could then fly over land without upsetting people
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bio161
Just one qst. Thanks to her extremely high speed Concorde was able to fly to JFK from LHR in just 3hrs and 30mins. Usually this is a normal flight from LIRF to UUDD where the flight crew, offcourse, flies as well the way back. The flight crew of concorde used to fly from LHR to JFK and then back as well or they were finishing their duty period in JFK and another crew was taking over them?
In fact it was just possible for the crews to do a return trip and indeed when there were crew problems this was indeed done.
Morning flight
The Concorde report time was 1.5 before departure and a turn around at JFK would have been about 1.5 hours so when all added up it could have just been done. However any delay to either service could result in the home bound flight being late or indeed cancelled due to flight time limitations. This the company deemed to be unacceptable risk on an aircraft which was sold as saving time.
In fact as the morning flight was on approach to JFK,the morning flight back to LHR was already taking off. For the crew to now wait for the late departure back to London would put them way over FTLimitations
That did not mean the crews only did one sector a day
LHR-IAD-MIA was a days work as was the return.
On some of the charter flights it was often a multi sector day such as
Sydney--Brisbane --Guam --Beijing
I was only doing the PR on that trip so I have not got the times but it did seem a long day's work
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Also, regarding the practicalities of flying LHR-JFK-LHR, one has to remember that there were two airframes involved - the first return flight having nightstopped JFK. So the early JFK-LHR service was just taxying out as the morning LHR-JFK landed.
It was possible to operate the early JFK-LHR (BA002) and then turn round at LHR to operate the late LHR-JFK (BA003) and this was done occasionally, generally at short notice to cover illness or crew shortages.
I only did it once and you certainly knew you'd done it afterwards....
It was possible to operate the early JFK-LHR (BA002) and then turn round at LHR to operate the late LHR-JFK (BA003) and this was done occasionally, generally at short notice to cover illness or crew shortages.
I only did it once and you certainly knew you'd done it afterwards....
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Brit312
Speaking of the IAD-Miami sector, was there something 'different' about the subsonic cruise altitude out of Washington? I only ever flew on this sector once,(down the back) but I remember that we did a very rapid transonic acceleration after we crossed the North Carolina coast at Wilmington, from something like FL400, which was only a little above VLA. The air noise over the upper fuselage increased much more rapidely than usual, even charters.
It was an awful long time ago, and if I've screwed up here (again) I heartily apologies .
Regards and salutations..
Dude
Speaking of the IAD-Miami sector, was there something 'different' about the subsonic cruise altitude out of Washington? I only ever flew on this sector once,(down the back) but I remember that we did a very rapid transonic acceleration after we crossed the North Carolina coast at Wilmington, from something like FL400, which was only a little above VLA. The air noise over the upper fuselage increased much more rapidely than usual, even charters.
It was an awful long time ago, and if I've screwed up here (again) I heartily apologies .
Regards and salutations..
Dude
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M2dude
It was now quite a long time ago, but looking at my log book I see that the flight was about 1hour 35mins chock to chock, so the fuel load would have been quite light. At subsonic speed the cruise height was determined like all other aircarft, in that the lighter you were the higher you could fly, and at those sort of light weights it was possible for Concorde to fly up to a subsonic cruise height of 39,000ft. From there at light weights the supersonic accel could be much quicker than what would be experienced on an Atlantic crossing at heavy weights.
In fact the aircraft would probably be lighter than a round the bay trip where we always had a 100 passengers. One problem with accel just off North Carolina's coast was that there was a north south airway right in our path and there always seemed to be a B757 at 41000ft which delayed our accel until he had passed. A cunning plot I think
Now you might ask if we did not have 100 passengers, then how many did we have between IAD and MIA well it is a secret, but I have to say we were normally lighty loaded. However the trip was very popular with the crews as it gave us a feel of the sun's warmth, which is hard to come by in New York in the winter
It was now quite a long time ago, but looking at my log book I see that the flight was about 1hour 35mins chock to chock, so the fuel load would have been quite light. At subsonic speed the cruise height was determined like all other aircarft, in that the lighter you were the higher you could fly, and at those sort of light weights it was possible for Concorde to fly up to a subsonic cruise height of 39,000ft. From there at light weights the supersonic accel could be much quicker than what would be experienced on an Atlantic crossing at heavy weights.
In fact the aircraft would probably be lighter than a round the bay trip where we always had a 100 passengers. One problem with accel just off North Carolina's coast was that there was a north south airway right in our path and there always seemed to be a B757 at 41000ft which delayed our accel until he had passed. A cunning plot I think
Now you might ask if we did not have 100 passengers, then how many did we have between IAD and MIA well it is a secret, but I have to say we were normally lighty loaded. However the trip was very popular with the crews as it gave us a feel of the sun's warmth, which is hard to come by in New York in the winter