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Concorde question

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Concorde question

Old 16th Jun 2022, 17:00
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After the Air France incident at Washington DC in 1979 where events similar to those that caused the Paris crash occurred, did BA install any extra protection to the fuel tanks. Ie skin doublers in the most vulnerable areas?
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Old 24th Jun 2022, 23:14
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Originally Posted by M2dude View Post
Point taken GF, but it was discovered during development flying that that the Olympus 593 could be relit, given sufficient IAS, at almost any altitude within the normal flight envelope. The variable inlet would even be automatically scheduled, as a funcion of N1, in order to improve relight performance at lower Mach numbers. I certainly agree that you would decelerate and lose altitude fairly quickly under these conditions, however a multiple flame out was never experienced during the entire 34 years of Concorde flight testing and airline operation. There was, as a matter of interest an un-commanded deployment of a Concorde RAT AT MACH 2!! (The first indications of the event were when the cabin crew complained about 'a loud propeller sound under the rear cabin floor'. A quick scan of the F/E's panel revealed the truth of the matter). The aircraft landed at JFK without incident, and the RAT itself, apart from a very small leak on one of the hydraulic pumps, was more or less un-phased by the event. Although it sounds horrific, a prop rotating in a Mach 2 airstream, the IAS it 'felt' would be no more than 530 KTS at any time. The RAT was of course replaced before the aircraft flew back to LHR.
Not quite sure about your reference to the RAT on an F16 being Hydrazine powered; a Ram Air Turbine is just that, using the freely rotatting propellor to power hydraulics, electrics or both. Or do you mean the the F16 has an emergency power unit? Either way, it's fascinating stuff.
Yes, I do remember that the Germans used Hydrazine as a fuel during WW2: The father of one of our Concorde pilots was on an air raid to destroy one o the production plants there, this aviation business is such a small world.
Thanks for the reply, Concorde expertise is always interesting. I should not have called the F-16 Emergency Power Unit a RAT, it is indeed not. The Concorde RAT was located aft between the engine pods, correct?

What I found interesting is that the AC generators would remain on-line at all; they drop instantaneously at subsonic speeds and the associated N2 rpm. I believe the hydraulics on the 747 will power flight controls down to a pretty low IAS.

Four engine flameout is a very unlikely event, unless one runs into a volcanic cloud.
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Old 30th Aug 2022, 19:54
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What an amazing thread, thank you for all the contributors....I've been reading through it for the last week as I pass about the half way point!

I'm just SLF with a huge interest and passion for Concorde and was lucky to bag a LHR-JFK flight in 2002 as an 18th birthday present. One of the contributors here in the left seat as it happens...At that time it was before the retirement announcement and I just assumed for my next NYC trip I'd be able to get onboard...

I grew up in North Hampshire and went to school in West Berkshire. My school was on a hill just west of Reading and our morning break would coincide with the BA001. I could sit outside the library that faced eastwards and watch the familiar shape materialize as it came from the Woodley NDB and went right overhead enroute to the Compton VOR. It never got old and caused much amusement when the Heathrow chaplain came to do a sermon one Sunday and was interrupted by the aircraft

Home was under the path of the inbound BA002/BA004 and would always listen for the distinctive sound and head to the garden...and if I happened to be in the area of Heathrow within 30mins or so of a Concorde arrival or departure my father would always suggest stopping by for a look. One of my very earliest memories was sitting high on the white fence by Avis on the North Perimeter Road and watching one land, this would have been late 1980s....

We had a Concorde captain in the neighbouring village that my parents were friendly with. In 1996 he took my Christopher Orlebar book to NYC for a roundtrip getting it signed by the crew in both directions and then gave me all the Jeppesens, flight paperwork and a whole host of passenger "items" that I treasured, and still do. That really sowed the seed for 12yr old me to *really* find a way to get onboard...(and those 250 tier points and 14,000 BA miles were the first entry on my Executive Club account as I couldn't join until I was 18! All downhill from there!)

Anyways, this Concorde captain was by all accounts a bit of a legend so I'm sure those of you insiders knew him. I recall one Sunday afternoon, this would have been late 1990s, I looked out the living room window and saw a BA Concorde at low level, banked streaking across the sky maybe a mile away, a quite incredible sight. It turned out that this local Captain was doing one of the round the bay charters and got ATC permission to do a little tour of North Hampshire. A couple of acquaintances from the village played tennis every Sunday at this specific time and had complained about aircraft noise to him. Well, what better way to piss them off than to do a low buzz of their tennis club... A year or so later he moved a little further south and opened up the village fete in similar fashion. He retired from BA after the 2000 grounding and the last I heard he was flying a large maroon business jet...that business jet being one of the Qatar Amiri 747SPs...

A question, finally! I now live fairly close to JFK and the 31L Canarsie departure is obviously extremely well known and one I've taken countless times in the "blunties". Given the noise abatement situation what happened if the weather didn't play ball? Were there other departure options? I've seen photos of arrivals on 13L, the Canarsie arrival and my own BA001 arrived on 4L. I assume therefore that arrivals were a lot less liberally governed,,,

Thanks in advance for your replies and I look forward to reading the other 1000 posts I haven't got around to!
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 18:56
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Speedbird223

…the 31L Canarsie departure is obviously extremely well known … Given the noise abatement situation what happened if the weather didn't play ball? … Were there other departure options? …

If the runway in use at JFK was not suitable for our departure, we would request a different runway, which JFK ATC were extremely helpful at providing, even though this caused some disruption to their landing/take-off pattern. For our part, we had to accept this request could entail a delay to our departure whilst waiting for a suitable gap in their traffic flow.

Remember that we had two take-off calculations to consider. Firstly, could Concorde get airborne from that runway under the prevailing conditions? Secondly - and this was usually the limiting factor at JFK - could the aircraft then stay with the noise limits at that take-off weight and under those ambient conditions of wind and temperature? If the answer to either question was no, then we needed another runway.

An example might be when JFK was using 04R for landing and 04L for departure. We might have been able to lift the weight off 04L, but would have been way over our noise limit, so we would request 22R for departure.


… I assume therefore that arrivals were a lot less liberally governed …

Did you mean a lot less strictly governed? If so, the answer is yes.

Concorde would use whatever landing runway was in use at JFK without problem, save requiring a bit more of a gap between herself and the preceding landing aircraft (due to her higher approach speeds maintained to much closer to touchdown) which ATC at JFK were well aware of and which they managed very professionally.

Even so, on the Canarsie approach, it was instructive to see just how quickly Concorde could close the spacing between herself and a preceding lightly loaded and therefore much slower B757.

31R was our preferred runway due to its proximity to the BA terminal, the Canarsie approach onto 13L was good fun and a frequent approach. 04R was also used and was an Autoland runway with Cat3A limits down to 15R / 700 ft RVR, useful in bad weather. Concorde had landing limits on all JFK runways, but, at least in my experience, the others were rarely, if ever, used.

I'm glad you enjoyed your flight on Concorde, it all seems so long ago now – probably because it was!

Best Regards

Bellerophon
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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 15:29
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Amazing, thank you for all the details!

Originally Posted by Bellerophon View Post
An example might be when JFK was using 04R for landing and 04L for departure. We might have been able to lift the weight off 04L, but would have been way over our noise limit, so we would request 22R for departure.


Wow, a great show for those in line for the 04L departure if you guys were using 22R!


Originally Posted by Bellerophon View Post
31R was our preferred runway due to its proximity to the BA terminal, the Canarsie approach onto 13L was good fun and a frequent approach. 04R was also used and was an Autoland runway with Cat3A limits down to 15R / 700 ft RVR, useful in bad weather. Concorde had landing limits on all JFK runways, but, at least in my experience, the others were rarely, if ever, used.


By the 31R approach was right by my first home in the NYC area....alas some 10yrs after a Concorde last ever flew it, sadly. My father took the subsonic BA001 shortly after I moved to NYC and I would leave my place when I saw it come over and he'd be through baggage claim by the time I got to T7


Originally Posted by Bellerophon View Post
I'm glad you enjoyed your flight on Concorde, it all seems so long ago now – probably because it was!
20yrs ago on Monday...
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