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AF 447 Search to resume

Old 4th Apr 2011, 11:46
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I cannot wait for the exact location to being disclosed so that mm43 can include it in the drawing..... Perhaps the location in itself will already tell us something about what happened....

"il y a des corps identifiables" could also relate to objects such as clothes, jewelry, and obviously dental records. "Identifiable" means nothing more than that, bodies can still be identified.....

But to even consider bringing such a plane up from that depth... perhaps the dead are better left in peace, I just cannot imagine anyone wanting to disturb this grave more than necessary (FDR and CVR)
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 11:47
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Cockpit and/or Cabin?

Capetonian,
Re your quote from the French Transport Minister, a clip of which I've seen in the this morning on the English-speaking satellite-TV station France24:
Elle a également précisé que des corps identifiables figuraient toujours dans l'habitacle de l'appareil.
"Je ne suis pas technicienne mais tout n'a pas explosé, il y a une partie de l'habitacle et dans cette partie de l'habitacle, il y a des corps", a-t-elle dit, ajoutant qu'il y avait des corps identifiables. Aucune information sur le nombre de corps découverts n'a été dévoilée.

Was waiting for one of our Francophone friends to interpret the first paragraph, as a literal translation leads to confusion, but I'll have a stab at it:
She also specified that some identifiable bodies would [figure among those found in?] the cockpit [and/or cabin] of the machine.

Although France24 translated "habitacle" as "cockpit", my Larousse dictionary says the word is also used for "passenger compartment" in the case of cars. So there is room for ambiguity here.

Now for her second quoted paragraph:
"I'm not a technician but all had not disintegrated, there's a part of the [cockpit/cabin] and in this part of [it] there are some bodies", she said, in adding that there were identifiable bodies. No information on the number of bodies found has been revealed.

Could one of our bi-linguists comment?

Re identification, teeth may be one expedient.
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 11:57
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Elle a également précisé que des corps identifiables figuraient toujours dans l'habitacle de l'appareil.
"Je ne suis pas technicienne mais tout n'a pas explosé, il y a une partie de l'habitacle et dans cette partie de l'habitacle, il y a des corps", a-t-elle dit, ajoutant qu'il y avait des corps identifiables. Aucune information sur le nombre de corps découverts n'a été dévoilée.


"She also specified that corpses which can still be identified were inside the cabin of the airplane."
Habitacle is indeed normally used for the cabin, but unfortunately the origin of the word is about the "living space" which in a more informal way could also mean the cockpit

"I am not a technician, but it has not exploded, there is a part of the cabin and in that part there are bodies", she said, adding that there were identifiable corpses. No information has been divulged about the number of passengers.

The way I read this is that the field of debris is small with some part of the fuselage still resembling in some way the original form of the fuselage, and that in that part of this fuselage corpses (multiple) have been detected which are still identifiable, which I take to be more than some single detached bones....
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 11:58
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Position ?

Gentlemen,

has anyone any idea of the location of this debris field ?

Why was it not announced immediately ? It is not as if hundreds of paparazzis could suddenly flock in and crowd this part of the Atlantic...

Position is possibly one of the most important item of information in this first sighting, along with 'almost intact airframe' and 'wreck positively identified as FGZCP'.

Best regards
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 12:04
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I always thought the a/c would be relatively intact but it would be one of few wrecks that wasn't broken into tiny pieces.

As far as recovery of any bodies goes vs leaving it alone, they did recover 98% or so of the Swiss Air crash, one year on. Wouldn't some families want to see their loved ones for one last time and have a proper grave to go to?
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 12:10
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Designating the wreck as a grave is more a nautical matter, I think. It makes some sense with ships, which, needless to say, are much more difficult to raise than an aircraft.

I'm pretty sure they will recover as much of the aircraft as possible. For one thing, the wreckage will doubtless tell us much more about what happened.
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 12:35
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Originally Posted by ushumgal
For one thing, the wreckage will doubtless tell us much more about what happened.
I don't quite see what it could tell us beyond what BEA has already published, and beyond what photographs of the sea floor would tell us. Our hope for revealing the causes of this accident sits in the FDR and CVR.

Regards,
HN39
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 12:54
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It will be interesting to see how well the location correlates with the Russian experience of how far airplanes travel when there is a mishap (loss of control) during cruise.
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 13:07
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des corps identifiables
I think you will find that in this instance the phrase does not mean that the bodies are individually identifiable as "Fred Jones", "Pierre Pierrot" etc., but rather that each is identifiable as a body. I'm pleased for the families that the aircraft has been found.
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 13:09
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Originally Posted by jcjeant
Will be not astonished if one day EASA publish a notice about the "discovery" of the wheel ...
Read the document:
Following the ATR 72 accident, the National Transportation Safety Board in the USA (NTSB) recommended updating aeroplanes icing conditions specifications. Although some knowledge existed at this date about severe icing conditions, including SLD, it was not possible to immediately update the icing environment in the Certification Specifications, because there was a need to identify in detail the parameters of the relevant environmental envelopes applicable to aircraft operations and to accurately assess the associated safety risk; in addition, the methods of compliance by aircraft manufacturers with potential new icing environment requirements had to be investigated (capabilities in terms of engineering tools, ground test facilities, flight tests). This was recognised as a very complex task requiring various expertises. Therefore, an Aviation Rulemaking Advisory Committee (ARAC) was tasked by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in December 1997, through its Ice Protection Harmonization Working Group (IPHWG), to perform the following actions:

Define an icing environment that includes SLDs;

Consider the need to define a mixed phase icing environment (supercooled liquid and ice crystals);

Devise requirements to assess the ability of an aeroplane to either safely operate without restrictions in these conditions or safely operate until it can exit these conditions;

Study the effects icing requirement changes could have on FAR/JAR 25.773 Pilot compartment view, 25.1323 Airspeed indicating system, and 25.1325 Static pressure systems.

Consider the need for a regulation on ice protection for angle of attack probes.

(...)

The proposed rule is based on the recommendations of the ARAC group. The ARAC IPHWG task 2 report rev A along with the task 2 phase IV review (submitted on 29 June 2009) are available on the FAA website under Regulations & Policies\Advisory and Rulemaking Committees\Advisory Committees\Aviation Rulemaking Advisory Committee\Transport Airplane and Engine\Active Working Groups\Ice Protection Harmonization.
Regards,
HN39

Last edited by HazelNuts39; 4th Apr 2011 at 13:30.
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 13:23
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CNN, for what that's worth, is reporting that a large debris field has been located as well as the remains of passengers.

Also, the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute is leading the search efforts and was the team which discovered the debris field during underwater search efforts performed in the past 24 hours, according to CNN.
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 13:23
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Originally Posted by Bobman84
As far as recovery of any bodies goes vs leaving it alone, they did recover 98% or so of the Swiss Air crash, one year on. Wouldn't some families want to see their loved ones for one last time and have a proper grave to go to?
See them? After over a year in seawater? I doubt it very much. Proper grave - maybe. There again some relatives might prefer the bodies to be left where they are.
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 13:32
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According to France 24 citing a source close to the investigation...
the debris field is situated West from LKP and not far from it.
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 13:32
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DX, "corps identifiables" in this context really does mean (I speak French) bodies that are individually identifiable.

Whether that is really the case remains to be seen, but what was meant by that sentence is just that, without ambiguity.
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 13:44
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Hi all,

But to even consider bringing such a plane up from that depth... perhaps the dead are better left in peace, I just cannot imagine anyone wanting to disturb this grave more than necessary (FDR and CVR)
This varies between nationalities. For example, when the "Estonia" ship sank in the Baltic Sea in 1994 claiming 852 lives lost, many Swedish mourners (most of the fatalities were from Sweden) demanded the bodies to be recovered while the Estonian and Finnish were more towards the "let them rest there in peace" opinion.

This may have been influenced by the fact that at the time of "Estonia"'s sinking the deepwater robots were not nearly as advanced as nowadays. So bringing up the bodies (or indeed the whole ship) would have been technically a huge task, certainly much more difficult than with an airplane.

Originally Posted by ushumgal
For one thing, the wreckage will doubtless tell us much more about what happened.
I don't quite see what it could tell us beyond what BEA has already published, and beyond what photographs of the sea floor would tell us. Our hope for revealing the causes of this accident sits in the FDR and CVR.
It depends. If the FDR and CVR would indicate that the cause is something structural, it may be worthwhile to recover at least those parts to get closer to the real cause.
And of course if the FDR and CVR are not found or are not usable, the puzzle needs to be solved using the parts that are found.

One scenario might be to first map out the wreckage area and, if possible, identify the various pieces that are found. Then later recover the interesting bits.
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 13:47
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A source close to the investigation said that the wreckage had been found "near the (plane's) last known position, in a limited area a few hundred metres (yards) to the west of this position.
First images of Rio-Paris jet wreck to be released < French news | Expatica France

Accuracy of above statement unknown at present.
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 13:50
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French TV from the BEA briefing reporting bodies to be recovered in 3-4 weeks, and cost of the recovery will be 5 million Euros, to be paid for by the government.
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 13:53
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Whale falls have been documented as an important food source for abyssal creatures. The pictures should be out very soon, but if fuselage sections came down somewhat intact the creatures may not yet have made their way completely in.

I would lean to translating "corps identifiables" as recognisable bodies and agree that relatives would be well advised not to have a look. The front cover of a book on the lost Franklin expedition features the corpse of a sailor who had been buried in a cold, wet environment. Yes, he's quite recognisable, but I'd be happier with said portrait inside the pages with a caution sticker.
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 13:58
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First picture

The plane seems to be slightly north from LKP.

Crash Rio-Paris : « Il y a plusieurs corps »
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Old 4th Apr 2011, 13:59
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Two passing thoughts....

- I can't imagine the sonar scans would have enough resolution to detect bodies inside the fuselage or cockpit, so one can presume they've already been taking photographs.
Edit : indeed the French news item linked in the previous post already shows vdeo and photos of some parts of the structure (landing gear in particular).

- 'Corps' (in french), same as 'body' (in english), can refer to an object, and not only to human remains. However, in the current context, I wouldn't think anybody would have been stupid enough to use corps/body in a press release, if human remains weren't meant.....

CJ

Last edited by ChristiaanJ; 4th Apr 2011 at 14:06. Reason: Correction, hadn't viewed the french news item yet
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